Boston Doctor Offers Sex Change Treatment to Kids

The WHY is that that our childrene were born like this and all scientific eveidence points to genetics and the markers on the chromozones. It is complicated. there are very few markers on a chromozone that dictate wheather or not child is born with a penis or vagina. there are many more that determine gender, and sexuality.

KitKat wrote:

The WHY is that that our childrene were born like this and all scientific eveidence points to genetics and the markers on the chromozones. It is complicated. there are very few markers on a chromozone that dictate wheather or not child is born with a penis or vagina. there are many more that determine gender, and sexuality.

True there is little seperation.

But, if you are born with a penis, you are a boy. If you are born with a vagina, you are a girl.

Don't get more straight forward than that.

Anything beond that regarding sexuality, involves pressure, influence, or denial.

You dont believe there is a seperation between physical and mental?

nobodysbusiness wrote:

You dont believe there is a seperation between physical and mental?

Not when it comes to matters of which sex you are.

If your daughter walked up to you tomorrow, and declared that she was a boy, and did so for say a year, what would you tell her?

hard to say - I could try to imagine how i'd react but until I was faced with it, I really wouldnt know.

Exactally.

KitKat wrote:

The WHY is that that our childrene were born like this and all scientific eveidence points to genetics and the markers on the chromozones. It is complicated. there are very few markers on a chromozone that dictate wheather or not child is born with a penis or vagina. there are many more that determine gender, and sexuality.

Sorry, but by your way of thinking, if a black child were born with blue eyes from some random chromosone it's parents could call it a birth defect because they and the child believed it had the wrong eyes. By your ideals homely kids could claim they were supposed to be attractive and born in the wrong body. It's all genetics. I agree that there are feminine males and masculine females, but what those chromosones make you is what you are.

I just saw several babies and toddlers yesterday and they were all too busy trying to figure out the world around them to be contemplating being in the wrong body. I just have to think something triggers this after they begin to assemble more complex thoughts.

You liken this to diseases and disorders, but the only ones I can think of that really fit well in the same category are things like anorexia nervosa, and other obsessive disorders. Anorexia has been thought by some researchers to be partially due to genetics too, but outside environmental factors, diet, and other psychological abnormalities also come into play. And it's still considered, and treated as an obsessive mental illness.

Nitromax and Ratzilla,
What about babies whose sex cant be identified from their genatalia? Which happens a lot. What doctors say to do in those cases is they encourage the parents to pick a gender neutral name and then just wait and see what gender the child is going towards (at toddler age) before declaring boy or girl.
Proof yet again that gender is NOT deteremined by genatalia but by the mind.

It funny to me, Ratizilla and Nitromax that you are just plain ignoring scientific evidence....at this point if your no longer ignorant on the subject....well then I am starting to doubt your intelligence....sorry but its true...

Now I am immediately feeling bad for saying the "intelligence" comment....I apologize, you are frustrating me.

KS1 wrote:

Nitromax and Ratzilla,
What about babies whose sex cant be identified from their genatalia? Which happens a lot. What doctors say to do in those cases is they encourage the parents to pick a gender neutral name and then just wait and see what gender the child is going towards (at toddler age) before declaring boy or girl.
Proof yet again that gender is NOT deteremined by genatalia but by the mind.

It funny to me, Ratizilla and Nitromax that you are just plain ignoring scientific evidence....at this point if your no longer ignorant on the subject....well then I am starting to doubt your intelligence....sorry but its true...

I know I'm not Ratz or Nitro, but... to answer the first question: I had seen a show many years ago, regarding this, on the Discover Channel. They used to tell the parents to pick a gender, now they test hormones or chromosomes, or do ultra sounds to check for a uterus and ovaries, to determine gender that way.

What about babies whose sex cant be identified from their genatalia? Which happens a lot.

How often are babies born gender neutural?

Sorry Suzyr, but no thats not what they do.....hormones and chromosome tests do not tell you what gender you are (this happened to a friend of mine just a few years ago by the way)....and doctors do NOT tell the parents to PICK a gender...they say wait until child is older and see what direction the child is going to....

In fact in the old days, the doctors and parents chose whatever the genatalia looked closest to and went with that.....often times finding out they were very wrong when the child was going the other way.

This condition is called intersexed and it is as common as 1 in 500 births....

What tells you which gender you are is what plumbing you are born with. Nothing more.

KS1 wrote:

Sorry Suzyr, but no thats not what they do.....hormones and chromosome tests do not tell you what gender you are ....

Just mentioned what I saw on the Discovery Channel.

What I am seeing now is that we have all had a sufficient amount of time to read up on this subject, and to form our own opinions. There is obviously still a large amount of the subject that is open for debate - but it is seeming to me like it is time to agree to disagree. I love that we have gained new members on the site, and would love for them to stick around. I just think we are to the point where the information has been laid out there, and no matter what we do from here on out it is like beating a dead horse.

My 2 cents.

nobodysbusiness wrote:

What I am seeing now is that we have all had a sufficient amount of time to read up on this subject, and to form our own opinions. There is obviously still a large amount of the subject that is open for debate - but it is seeming to me like it is time to agree to disagree. I love that we have gained new members on the site, and would love for them to stick around. I just think we are to the point where the information has been laid out there, and no matter what we do from here on out it is like beating a dead horse.

My 2 cents.

Once again, you are right. I am glad to have new members on board. Hope they stick around.

KS1 wrote:

Nitromax and Ratzilla,
What about babies whose sex cant be identified from their genatalia? Which happens a lot. What doctors say to do in those cases is they encourage the parents to pick a gender neutral name and then just wait and see what gender the child is going towards (at toddler age) before declaring boy or girl.
Proof yet again that gender is NOT deteremined by genatalia but by the mind.

It funny to me, Ratizilla and Nitromax that you are just plain ignoring scientific evidence....at this point if your no longer ignorant on the subject....well then I am starting to doubt your intelligence....sorry but its true...

It's still not proof of anything. A child born with both sets of genitalia is different from one that just claims theirs is wrong. And you ignored scientific evidence I presented from psychologists who have dealt with transgender kids for many years. It was rather plainly stated that kids raised as their biological gender most often do not choose to trans in later life, while 100% of those given hormone blockers did. In effect, hormone blockers almost guarantee they will stay transgender.

The entire psyche changes during puberty and don't give me any BS about TG suicides caused by puberty because suicide is not at all unusual in the teen years regardless of gender identification. I know of several teen suicides around here over the years and being TG had nothing to do with them. By using hormone blockers you are basically tranquilizing them from the stresses caused by pubescent hormones and the suicide threat will naturally decrease.

And from what I've read here you've all specifically avoided psychologists who prefer the child be raised as the gender it was born. In my opinion, you have chosen to take the "they were born that way" theory because maybe you feel it absolves you of any guilt. But they're still a product of you whether through your genetic input, or other influence after birth so it really is pointless to worry about it. Not that I'm suggesting you could control your own genetic input. You just need to worry now about taking care of the kid.

After meeting a young man this weekend with legitamate problems, some very recent and very painful, and seeing him deal with it do to positive attention, makes me wonder the whole TG thing even more.

Yeah nitro, he's a trooper. All he's been through and he just acts like any other kid.

I've been wondering the TG thing in very small kids from the start. From what I read, the idea that biological factors such as altered chomosomes and unusual hormonal deviations are still just theories. The only sites I could find claiming TG was strictly biological tended to sound like they were promoting TG life in general. But even TG site dedicated to helping TG persons warned about the risks with small children.

And for the record, I dismissed several sites that were completely negative about transgenders because I felt they were politically or religiously motivated. So no, I am not looking at one side of this issue. I'm searching for the real truth, and I think that truth is probably that feminine feeling males, or masculine feeling females mistake their feelings for actually being what they are not. Fine if they are an adult, but scary stuff with a kid.

*Sits back to waits and be told that applying common sense is ignorant again*

NB.. I always enjoy the debates, but I'll join you in welcoming the newcommers brought by this thread. And I wish they'd come to the Saturday event too. Not to argue this, but so we could put faces with the names. Might be if we met them and even their kids it would've been to their advantage.

There were a couple new faces to me Saturday and now I know slickjay isn't really a yellow tomcat with an AK. He's a big ole man with an AK. But the cat is still cool.

So Ks1, weebs, kitkat, LMTS, Openminded, stay and discuss other topics. These forums are one of the tamest places you can have a real debate, and if you felt uncomfortable meeting us, how are you going to handle the hostile ones? Like I've said, just because some of us have differing opinions doesn't mean we'd look down on you, and I don't know of any of us that'd be mean to your kids. Unless giving them barbecue, cake, and watermelon is mean. If you truly want to be accepted, you gotta be less defensive and let yourselves get aquainted to have it happen.

nitromaxx98 wrote:

After meeting a young man this weekend with legitamate problems, some very recent and very painful, and seeing him deal with it do to positive attention, makes me wonder the whole TG thing even more.

????????
...what is your point???
My child deals with her condition very positively....she is a wonderful little girl. And niether her dad nor I would change a thing about her. It is unfair yes that she was born this way...but the times that will be difficult for her is when she has to deal with closeminded people like yourselves.

I am bowing out of this conversation...you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink....some of you sadly have your mind made up about a topic you just dont KNOW about because you have not dealt with it firsthand...but it seems you just refuse to LISTEN and LEARN from people who are dealing with it. I personally belong to an internet support group with more that 300 families.....this is something that is real and there is no doubt in my mind that it is biological and science combined with the personal experinces of THOUSANDS of people proof it..

By the way as far as chromosome tests go...did you know there are a wide variety of sex chromosomes markers that are NOT just XX and XY....such as a child who was identified as a boy at birth actually having a the chromosomes XXY.....once again proof that genatalia does NOT determine gender identity.

THANKS though to those of you were opened your minds and your hearts!

KS1.. There's one thing for sure. You'll never sway anyone's opinion by telling them you know it all and that they are just ignorant. I hold a position where experience means alot. But I tell every new person to the job that they should never be afraid to offer an opinion because they might just see something all the old hands have missed.

You know there were a bunch of highly educated individuals some years back who were convinced that if they all killed themselves when the comet passed that they'd be able to ride into some special new life. Thousands of individuals have been snowballed by greedy persons in the medical field to have surgeries and take medications they shouldn't have. Individuals with false agendas to push have gotten millions to follow, and support them as politics and TV preachers have proven so well.

In past decades there were fertility drugs given that caused severe birth defects even though it was considered the way to go at the time. Millions of women became addicted to valium, because it was the way of the time. Mental illness was treated with shock therapy and lobotomys. Thousands upon thousands of children were prescribed Mellaril by psychiatrists only to find out years later that if that child also smoked marijuana it could release latent psychosis. Every day there are financial advisors, so called doctors, and a host of others claiming they can fix problems because they have that magic formula.

So I'm happy you know it all, because apparently the parents of TG kids are the first persons I've ever known who couldn't possibly be wrong. But take one piece of advise and learn to be tolerant yourself before you demand it of others or you and those other 299 families will only have a big back patting club with no outside support.

By the way, I assume you do know that if the treatments that follow the hormone blockers are done too quickly your child will become sterile. Dr Spack said so.

Quote :

And you ignored scientific evidence I presented from psychologists who have dealt with transgender kids for many years.

Anything Ken Zucker has to say is mostly ignored by the trans community and its allies because of the way he ran the Clarke Clinic in Toronto. He destroyed many lives through his way of accepting patients, young and old and he's not well respected in Canada or US. He also fundraised for NARTH, the National Association for Research of Therapy of
Homosexuality. If you believed homosexuality is a learned lifestyle then there's not much more I can say. The guy's a quack through and through.

Quote :

After meeting a young man this weekend with legitamate problems, some very recent and very painful, and seeing him deal with it do to positive attention, makes me wonder the whole TG thing even more.

I'm glad you have full knowledge of what's legitimate or what's not. Having to deal with a child turning herself inside out trying to be a boy was painful to watch. I thought she was being brave and righteous, (not to mention stupid), she walked among and defended the homeless, saved a girl from being sexually assaulted by a drunk and defended a little kid from being abused by his father on a public transit but it all turned out to be her way to live dangerously. A form of suicide I suppose. A part of her childhood was lost to her because she was trying to be someone she wasn't. It may not be legitimate to you but you've never met me, my family and you don't know what's recent and what's painful in our lives. She's still having difficult time with close minded ignorant people but she now feels she can at least move ahead. She graduates this year with a university degree which she never thought she'd see.

I'm not here to educate or sway anyone to be on "my side". I really don't need you to waste your time wondering about the TG thing either, it's pointless to me. I was hoping to meet people who would listen and without truly understanding the hows and the whys, accept there are trans folk living among them without being judgmental and cruel. You don't think I beat myself up on what it was I did that caused my child to be a transsexual? I cried buckets of tear before getting to this point of calm. I worried myself sick about how she's being treated on a daily basis and what her life will be like but then, that's what parents do.

You're right that this is one of the better forums of good hearted people. I'm not afraid of meeting any of you but I just can't get there from here. I love the potluck bbq thing that you do. It really is sweet but it can only happen in a small community. How big is Hays anyway?

Quote :

How big is Hays anyway?

Roughly 20,000.

Ratizilla,
You said:

"So I'm happy you know it all, because apparently the parents of TG kids are the first persons I've ever known who couldn't possibly be wrong. But take one piece of advise and learn to be tolerant yourself before you demand it of others or you and those other 299 families will only have a big back patting club with no outside support.?

I have never said I know it all...but yes I do know more that TS kids and the research into this subject than you do... some of the things you say are just pretty mean.....

And I am definatley a very tolerant person....ignorance and close-mindedness though no...I dont tolerate that...and never will.

A sign of parents being PC.

PC?

Politicaly Correct

What do you mean...a sign of parents being PC?

im confused..

When you buy in to media hype.

Media hype???? about what??

I must have missed something. I am a avid news watcher and have not heard about the "TG hype"

According to info posted here 1 in 500 are afflicted by it. How was that missed?

must have not been covered on FIXED NEWS our MSNBC

Woa....you completely misinterpreted that and I should have been clearer......I said according to research (NOT THE MEDIA) 1 in 500 males are said or have an extra sex chromosomoes instead of being an XY boy they are an XXY...
more specifically I was talking about intersex conditions where a boy is born with an extra X chromosome....being neither and XXY boy...genetically neither a boy or a girl.

My point was that chromosomes do NOT for all people automatically say someone is a boy or a girl....the BODY does not determine gender identity was what I was saying.

amom wrote:

Anything Ken Zucker has to say is mostly ignored by the trans community and its allies because of the way he ran the Clarke Clinic in Toronto. He destroyed many lives through his way of accepting patients, young and old and he's not well respected in Canada or US. He also fundraised for NARTH, the National Association for Research of Therapy of
Homosexuality. If you believed homosexuality is a learned lifestyle then there's not much more I can say. The guy's a quack through and through.

I expect anything Zucker says is ignored by the TG community since he doesn't say what they want to hear. One of my sisters calls lots of doctors quacks. Usually the ones who tell her that she doesn't have an exotic illness she saw on some lame talk show.

Once again, if you have a penis, you are a boy. If you have a vagina, you are a girl. If you have both, then you seek help. Trying to reverse engineer the natural order of life, will only result in the demise of the same.

nitromaxx98 wrote:

Once again, if you have a penis, you are a boy. If you have a vagina, you are a girl. If you have both, then you seek help. Trying to reverse engineer the natural order of life, will only result in the demise of the same.

can we assume this is your opinion?

By the way, I did want to clear something Ratzilla posted earlier.

I thought long and hard about going to the picnic Saturday...and changed my mind several times.

At no time did I think anyone would be mean to us....I just did not think it was a good idea to "out" my child....this is just something not everyone is going to "get" no matter how much I want that.

I am sure we would have met some great people....and you in turn would have as well....

How does the body not determine gender identity? If I point at a rock and swear its a doughnut, is it not still a rock?

nobodysbusiness wrote:

nitromaxx98 wrote:

Once again, if you have a penis, you are a boy. If you have a vagina, you are a girl. If you have both, then you seek help. Trying to reverse engineer the natural order of life, will only result in the demise of the same.

can we assume this is your opinion?

Yes, and it is only an opinion.

No one is "reverse engineering" the natural order of life Nitro.
People are born with birth defects everyday....when this happens....whether you notice it right away...or it comes up later....you seek medical help....and continue to seek it....and help your child.
As a good and loving parent you guide your child through life's problems...no matter what the deck of cards.... and you simple help him/her be the best person she can be....
its really not that hard to understand.

nitromaxx98 wrote:

How does the body not determine gender identity? If I point at a rock and swear its a doughnut, is it not still a rock?

I would suggest that you do some more research...the mind is complex and it just does not work that way. Gender Identity IS separate from sexual organs....sometimes the two dont match.

The mind learns what it's taught early in life. A chineese baby brought to America will speak fluent English if raised to do so. A jewish or Catholic child wil do the same. It's when you allow outsiders to determine your family structure that the demise begins.

KS1 wrote:

I have never said I know it all...but yes I do know more that TS kids and the research into this subject than you do... some of the things you say are just pretty mean.....

I know a guy who can quote the Bible cover to cover. Doesn't mean I'm buying what he's selling. He calls TG an abomination. And I guess since he knows everything about religion it makes him really smart.

KS1 wrote:

And I am definatley a very tolerant person....ignorance and close-mindedness though no...I dont tolerate that...and never will.

So that's why you call anyone names who doesn't agree with you?

Here's the bottom line on my part. I think your kids really believe they are TG. I think the boys have a strong feminine side and the girls feel masculine. I think they honestly mistake this for being in the wrong bodies and the promotion they get from the TG community solidifies their thoughts.

It doesn't mean they are crazy, and I do think they are likely predisposed to it. But I don't think they are biologically something different. One of you stated that TG is in the mind, and I agree 100%. There are individuals who really believe they are aliens. Others believe their God verbally converses with them. I know of one man who truly believed he was a werewolf. Most of us would consider all three to be delusional, but only the guy who thinks he's a werewolf is considered truly unbalanced because there are lots of religious nuts and alien fanatics, but werewolf support groups havn't become a fad yet.

KS1 wrote:

By the way, I did want to clear something Ratzilla posted earlier.

I thought long and hard about going to the picnic Saturday...and changed my mind several times.

At no time did I think anyone would be mean to us....I just did not think it was a good idea to "out" my child....this is just something not everyone is going to "get" no matter how much I want that.

I am sure we would have met some great people....and you in turn would have as well....

Does this mean your child is only transgender behind closed doors at home?