Boston Doctor Offers Sex Change Treatment to Kids

Ms. Open Minded wrote:

Now, would you be so kind as to comment on the scenario I posed to you recently. I am very interested to hear your response.

Sure, but unless you can repost it I'll have to look for it. It's been a very busy weekend for me with all the storms and finding time to read or reply to anything has been a pain.

Ms. Open Minded wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

I do have one other question at the moment. The comment has been made a few times about your kids being depressed and allowing them to live as the other gender fixes this. Question is, do they also receive medications such as anti-depressants at this time?

No.

I get your concern for this not being taken as seriously and I respect your concern for others reading this thread. But really, this is SUCH a hard path, I can't imagine anyone choosing it rather than being forced into it!

I am impressed. Seems that TG kids are the only person I've ever heard of with depression and thoughts of suicide that wasn't stuffed full of pills by a psychiatrist. Excuse my suspicion, but I find that difficult to believe.

I can imagine alot of parents putting a kid through all kinds of stuff. I could even picture transgender kids being the newest fad among the Hollywood/music business crowd. Picture a conversation between any two pop stars going something like this.....

"Oh that Brittney is such a bitch. Her kid scored 5 points higher on the TG test. I could have just died when Oprah invited her skank ass on the show instead on me. Her brat probably cheated to be more TG than mine anyways."

I can see that conversation without imagining too hard.

Ratzilla wrote:

KS1 wrote:

Actually after re-reading that posts...the person was basically saying what I just said, there is NO scientifically sound medical test...but it would be nice if there was..
GID is diagnosed by the symptoms.
Well-educated parents and doctors work together to treat GID....and it is all monitored very closely as with any serious diagnosis.
Guess I just dont understand what there is to debate about...

Earlier in this discussion I was being told about the levels of maleness, or female on a scale. I believe one was a comparison of yardlines on a football field with one end male, the other female. That was one type test specifically mentioned on that TG site as one to avoid.

And as to why there was a debate, until now I'd been made out to be a hate filled uncaring man because you parents had all the answers and I just didn't want to listen. I even got jumped on by admin for questioning you. Still not sure why.

In the last few answers some of you have said you still have worries and questions. My concern is that a parent takes things into consideration before and during the process rather than just accepting one psychologists opinion and going full steam ahead. I also wanted any easily swayed person out there not to read your posts and rush into putting their kid through this whole thing just because little Bobby likes dolls or Sally likes toy trucks. Some in this world are very gullible and jump into things without thinking. Maybe you didn't, but someone reading your posts could.

I do have one other question at the moment. The comment has been made a few times about your kids being depressed and allowing them to live as the other gender fixes this. Question is, do they also receive medications such as anti-depressants at this time?

Ratzilla,
We all have said repeatedly that we are NOT taking one pychologists opinion...we weigh everything and I know many families, myself included talked to several professionals. I am not some gullible person who just "believes" everything she is told. Debating with you is frustrating because it feels like I am repeating myself over and over and still you come back and say the same thing as if you didnt hear me or the other parents at all....like this which I am again repeating....GID is not when "Bobby likes dolls and Sally likes toy trucks" it is much more complicated which had been described to you already....

And no I dont think you are an "uncaring" person...I think you are wrong...but I dont think your a bad person. I do wish you would step back from you preconceived notions and listen a bit more...and hopefully come away having LEARNED something.

And no my child does not receive medication for antidepressants...I certainly do beleive that adults and children can suffer from depression due to a chemical imbalances or other stressers in life...for us the depression and anxiety was because she was not allowed to be herself...now she is...and the depression and anxiety is GONE...so medication was not needed.

Ratzilla wrote:

I am impressed. Seems that TG kids are the only person I've ever heard of with depression and thoughts of suicide that wasn't stuffed full of pills by a psychiatrist. Excuse my suspicion, but I find that difficult to believe.

I can imagine alot of parents putting a kid through all kinds of stuff. I could even picture transgender kids being the newest fad among the Hollywood/music business crowd. Picture a conversation between any two pop stars going something like this.....


"Oh that Brittney is such a bitch. Her kid scored 5 points higher on the TG test. I could have just died when Oprah invited her skank ass on the show instead on me. Her brat probably cheated to be more TG than mine anyways."

I can see that conversation without imagining too hard.

Really? You can see that conversation happening? I cant see that all. Transgendered people are NOT glorified in the media/the world at all...they are the LEAST understood of all minorities in my opinion. Say for a minute being TG did become a fad..would not matter...because you can not MAKE a child be TG any more than you can make a child not be TG.

No loving and good parent wants this for their child any more than a loving and good parent would want their child to be born with any other type of disability...but not wanting something doesn't make it go away....you deal with it the best you can....as a loving and good parent.

Here's the whole post Ratzilla (just in case you missed all the other cool stuff I said in addition to the scenario)

OpenMinded wrote:

Ms. Open Minded speaking again.

It's interesting to me that people seem to be getting upset in this debate. I see a fairly reasonable conversation available here as long as everyone tries a little harder to understand the other's side.
Ratzilla, you make a lot of very valid points. Without knowing the families on this site and their children, you have concerns about indulging a child in a dangerous path. I get that. This IS a dangerous path. Our kids are at a HIGH risk of violence. As parents we have to worry about horrible things, like whether someone will MURDER our children just for being who they are. If you think about it, no wonder we're desperate to have the rest of the world understand this "condition"! (Man it's hard to find a word that's not loaded with unintended meaning!) So pushing us to be cautious makes a lot of sense to me.

You are correct about the GID diagnosis. It is a huge concern because it is too all-encompassing. A very masculine girl and a feminine boy can easily be diagnosed with GID. Many believe that it is intentionally vague so that parents who can't stand cross-gender behavior in their children can be justified in putting them in reparative therapy.

Here's the thing, it's a dangerous path. So any sane family wouldn't go down it without a LOT of work before hand. So respond to this scenario for me Ratzilla. Your neighbor has a child who is a boy, who has behaved like a girl all her life. As she gets older she gets angry and depressed (say age 5 or 6). She obsesses about death. They pull her from school, allow her to transition and you start to see a whole new child. She's happy, her death obsession disappears completely, her academics improve. They put her back in school and she makes friends MORE easily. No one teases her anymore. If you knew your neighbors to be a great, loving family, and you watched that exact scenario unfold, what would you think?

(BTW it's not hypothetical. Our family is surrounded by very right wing, republican, religious fundamentalists that by all rights should be treating us like leapers, but instead are loving and accepting - go figure.)

Ratzilla wrote:

[
I am impressed. Seems that TG kids are the only person I've ever heard of with depression and thoughts of suicide that wasn't stuffed full of pills by a psychiatrist. Excuse my suspicion, but I find that difficult to believe.

I can imagine alot of parents putting a kid through all kinds of stuff. I could even picture transgender kids being the newest fad among the Hollywood/music business crowd. Picture a conversation between any two pop stars going something like this.....

"Oh that Brittney is such a bitch. Her kid scored 5 points higher on the TG test. I could have just died when Oprah invited her skank ass on the show instead on me. Her brat probably cheated to be more TG than mine anyways."

I can see that conversation without imagining too hard.

Now you're just messing with us You do have quite an imagination. I don't think I would want to spend a day inside your head!

No really, that's what most families describe. The act of transition relieves the depression and anxiety. As for our child, I was hoping it would make her not quite such a pain in the $@# , but it only made her a happy pain in the $@#.

KS1 wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

[

I can imagine alot of parents putting a kid through all kinds of stuff. I could even picture transgender kids being the newest fad among the Hollywood/music business crowd. Picture a conversation between any two pop stars going something like this.....


"Oh that Brittney is such a bitch. Her kid scored 5 points higher on the TG test. I could have just died when Oprah invited her skank ass on the show instead on me. Her brat probably cheated to be more TG than mine anyways."

I can see that conversation without imagining too hard.

Now I know you're just messing with us

That WAS funny

How many of the TG kids live in Hays?

I wouldnt know the answer to that.

I would say at least 5!!!!

i think there is aleast 100

From what I hear the number of persons with some kind of gender variency ranges from 1 in 250 to 1 in 500. As I understand it that includes a wide variety, such as intersex, hermaphroditee, etc. So figure out how many people are in Hays County and go form there.

Ms. Open Minded wrote:

Now you're just messing with us You do have quite an imagination. I don't think I would want to spend a day inside your head!

No really, that's what most families describe. The act of transition relieves the depression and anxiety. As for our child, I was hoping it would make her not quite such a pain in the $@# , but it only made her a happy pain in the $@#.

Nah, I wasn't messing with you. I really can picture Hollywood and music pop stars having a "Who has the most TG kid" competition. You know how celebrities get caught up in causes and competing with each other. Right now I think adopting Asian and African kids is still the celebrity fad.

And I'm still surprised anyone in the psychiatric community hearing of a kid with depression wouldn't want meds prescribed. I'd still like to know all that goes on with a kid like this. I just have a feeling it's not as simple as being born in the wrong body. I know you don't much agree with me, but generally if I think there's something more to a story than has been presented, there is. From what I've seen the medical and psychiatric communities are still divided on what causes transgender, and how to handle it, so it's not likely the general public is going to agree either.

If you guys hang around here you'll see I make comments and ask alot of questions on alot of serious topics and I'm more interested in finding the truth, than sparing hurt feelings, and alot of times someone only tells you what they want you to hear. So don't take it too personal. I really do hope your kids are happy with the choices you've made.

First of all having a TG child is not a choice..it just is.
You are right that gender specialists and the psyhiatric community are very divided on the cause of TG and how best to treat it.
There needs to be more research and more research is being done.
I'm happy with the way we are handling it though....its nothing I we have chosen...but I am here for my child always and the most important thing to me is that she is happy.
Its just something her dad and I will continue to monitor as she gets older.

And no, there really is nothing more to the story than is being presented.

And no, I dont take it personal....well OK maybe sometimes..

My comment on choice means your childs choice to live this way, and your choices on how to deal with it. I don't know if it's preventable, if it's physical, mental, or what. Here is what I do think.

I think certain persons are probably predisposed to be TG, while some are predisposed to be gay, and some are predisposed to be very straight laced and even prudish. I believe these predispositions are then influenced by any number of things which can include how a parent treats them, health conditions, environmental exposures, traumatic incidents, religious upbringing, etc.

One thing I do know is that lots of serial killers were brought up in strict religious environments, and some of the sluttiest girls I ever knew were daughters of preachers and cops, and censorship and prohibitions only increases the desire for that which is banned. Often the most wholesome moralist environment creates the most immoral person.


And NO, I'm not comparing your kids to killers and sluts, so please don't jump on that. I was just presenting some examples of environmental influence. But outside factors probably play into this more than you think. Many of you say you initially ignored or fought against the childs TG situation. I wonder how many parents have increased the childs desire to change by fighting it.

Like I say, I'm not accusing, just asking questions. Not necessarily of you, but pondering things over and typing as I do.

Well my husband used to say, kidding or course, that the reason our kid turned out TG was because I was so intent on putting her in cute little frilly outfits and she just rebelled. But we don't seriously believe this. In fact I am well aware of how bad some of those preachers and cops kids can be! And for similar reasons I have tried never to make a big deal out of anything, including when my kid wanted to wear only spiderman outfits. My feeling was let it ride out and it will go away on it's on. And it did. And I'm letting this 'ride out' but it's been years now and isn't letting up.

Now here is a tangentially related note-Has anyone read the Nuture Assumption? I'm only about a quarter way into it but the general tenet it that that whole 50 50 argument abotu nature vs nuture should be put to rest because MOST everything is nature, and only the mot egregeous parental wrong doings actually make a differnece. (yes I know I can't spell fer sh*t)

I agree that peer groups affect a childs behaviors more than a parent does during mid to latter grade school years, and especially during the teen years. But the early years 0 to about 5 or 6 are influenced heavily by the primary caregivers, and whatever environment those caregivers provide. That can shape the child in ways that will still be present during further shaping by their peers. The parent can also have a signifigant influence during those later years by how they act towards their changing child and their peers. You can be your kids best pal, or his worst enemy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon/2000/boyturnedgirl.shtml

This is a perfect example to argue against the theory that a childhood heavily influenced by primary caregivers can shape a child. It couldn't re-shape a child's true gender and it eventually led to his untimely death.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=20309661

I just noticed the story done by BBC was in 2000. Here's what happened to David Reimer, formerly Brenda, born Bruce.

Ratizilla,
Like KitKat, me and our daughter's dad NEVER made a huge deal about her wanting to play with girl toys at all....we sometimes would very gently try to steer her toward "boy" toys and acitivities but she just was not interested.
All the time...we thought this "girl thing"...saying she was a girl... was a phase and kept thinking it would go away. We did not feel comfortable for a long time buying her the girl toys she asked for so she would improvise with other items or play with her older sister's toys.
We did not influence anything...she just grew into the person she is as with any child.

Think of it this way....if you were to wake up tomorrow with the body of a female...would you feel like a female then....furthermore....for those of you with kids...if they were some kind of horrible accident and had to get the body of the other sex...would your kids suddenlty start acting like that body...??

It is frustrating when people try to dismiss this as being caused by environment....her dad and I could have absolutley done NOTHING different. We did have a choice...let her be who she is...or MAKE her supress who she is....we chose to let her be herself...

"Be what you is. Not what you is not. Those who do this. Is the happiest lot."

Mr. Wizard from Tutor the Turtle. ...

SO TRUE

Oh my gosh...I am going to copy that quote and save it somewhere!

use it as your signature

Done

Ok well I thought it was done..what I am i doing wrong...lol?

1. Profile
2. Signature
3. Enter text into box
4. Save

seeing if signature shows up

now it should work

amom wrote:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=20309661

I just noticed the story done by BBC was in 2000. Here's what happened to David Reimer, formerly Brenda, born Bruce.

I could be wrong, but I believe he ended up commiting suicide. It's a very sad story. But also further proof that you cannot influence gender identity.

KitKat,

As stated in http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=20309661

David's twin committed suicide before he did in 2004.

Thanks for clearing that up, what a tragic story. I first learned about it from a documentary about his life, which was made before either suicide. What a burden for a family to bear.

Yes that story definitely proves that you can NOT change a person's gender identity
not matter how hard to may try....
It is a perfect example the the body does not determine gender identity.
I have seen that documentary a few times...I find myself thinking about it a lot...very brave though of David though to have come out when he heard the doctor was touting his work as "success"... reminds me of Dr. Zucker actually!
But yes...very trajic story...a whole family was destroyed.

KS1 wrote:

Think of it this way....if you were to wake up tomorrow with the body of a female...would you feel like a female then....furthermore....for those of you with kids...if they were some kind of horrible accident and had to get the body of the other sex...would your kids suddenlty start acting like that body...??

But your child was born with that body. Sorry, not the same thing.

KS1 wrote:

It is frustrating when people try to dismiss this as being caused by environment....her dad and I could have absolutley done NOTHING different. We did have a choice...let her be who she is...or MAKE her supress who she is....we chose to let her be herself...

It is also frustrating to keep hearing those involved keep insisting TG kids are just born that way when even medical experts and transgender persons themselves say the causes are still unknown. One single incident can radically shape a persons whole life. Being mugged can cause a person to live the rest of their life hiding behind locked doors.

What I was exposed to shaped my entire current self and I recognize that. I do not believe you are born with more than a simple awareness of existing, and that's likely very vague. You will have a certain personality which I believe is partly genetic since nervous debilities and other health factors that influence an extroverted or introverted personality tend to run in families. The rest is learned as you go.

If you had raised a transgender child, you would probably be saying it as well. We've seen their cross gender behavior from the time they could exhibit anything that could be identified as typically boy or typically girl.

BTW, you still haven't responded to my request about the scenario

TS kids are born that way and the causes of why they are "born that way" is still not unknown. That much they know.

Ratizilla,
My point is....if you magically changed bodies...your mind would not change...your gender identity would still be the same....gender identity is not determined by the body...it is determined by the mind.
Anyone with kids can see by the time they are very very little you can see what toys they are automatically drawn too....gender identity is innate....
And no matter how many times you keep saying it....it does not change the fact that NOTHING pychologically happened to our chidren to "cause" this.
With our kids, the gender varient behaviors were there their entire lives.

And I agree with amom....MOST medical professionals DO believe TS kids are born that way....and there is PLENTY of evidence that proves it...besides the powerful and true stories of us moms and dads.

Quote :

TS kids are born that way and the causes of why they are "born that way" is still not unknown. That much they know.

I meant to say "still unknown". Sorry for the extra "not". KS1, you got it though.

Ratizilla,
You say a person "learns the rest as they go" so a person "learns" to be dyslexic....a person "learns" to have autism??...and did your parents really have to teach you to be a boy?? Really?? Or was it just natural?

A person does learn some things like they "learn" to be closeminded...but no...they dont learn their gender identity.

KS1 wrote:

Ratizilla,
You say a person "learns the rest as they go" so a person "learns" to be dyslexic....a person "learns" to have autism??...and did your parents really have to teach you to be a boy?? Really?? Or was it just natural?

A person does learn some things like they "learn" to be closeminded...but no...they dont learn their gender identity.

Ironic that I spelled dyslexic wrong...oops

Ms. Open Minded wrote:

If you had raised a transgender child, you would probably be saying it as well. We've seen their cross gender behavior from the time they could exhibit anything that could be identified as typically boy or typically girl.

BTW, you still haven't responded to my request about the scenario

Please repost the scenario as I have already asked before. I'm far too busy to re-read every post to find it.

A few comments from psychologists specializing in transgender children. These were excerpts from a radio broadcast on transgender children.
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Psychologist Ken Zucker is a gender identity specialist who works at the Center for Addiction and Mental Health in Toronto, Canada. His treatment approach is to try to make kids with gender identity issues feel more comfortable with their biological sex.

Quote :

Clinically, I would say yes. I've seen many kids over the years present with all the indicators of GID, and in terms of my quantitative measures they're very extreme. But the follow-up studies I've done, and others too, show [that] a substantial majority of kids seen for GID in childhood show desistance — that is, when they're older they don't want to be the other sex. We just published a study of 25 girls we first saw in childhood and found that only 12 percent seem to have persistent gender dysphoria when they're older. We find similar rates of persistence in boys.

The therapists supporting a child's transition early, I have characterized them in a half serious way as liberal essentialists. On the surface, the approach comes across as very humanistic, liberal, accepting, tolerant of diversity. But I think the hidden assumption is that they believe the child's cross-gender identity is entirely caused by biological factors. That's why I call them essentialists. Liberals have always been critical of biological reductionism, but here they embrace it. I think that conceptual approach is astonishingly naive and simplistic, and I think it's wrong.

Psychologist Diane Ehrensaft is a gender identity specialist who works in the San Francisco Bay Area. Ehrensaft has encouraged a small subset of her patients to transition to living as the opposite gender, even at an early age.

*note* Diane leans strongly towards your side of this, but she did make one statement I would like you to see.

Quote :

Where does transgenderism in kids come from? Is it social or biological?

I would say that in the vast majority of cases it's constitutional — biological — the child brings it to us. Which isn't to say that it couldn't also be caused by environmental influences as well. We certainly know cases of a parent who wanted to have a child of the opposite gender and so raised the child as the opposite gender — and basically twists a child into a transgender identity.

Polly Carmichael, a British psychologist who works at the Portman Clinic in London, which has a unit specifically dedicated to gender identity, says the identity of most children this age is in constant flux.

Quote :

"You can have a child who is presenting with absolute certainty, but it may be that at a later point they will decide that is not in fact what they want and their feelings may indeed change".

The Portman clinic has treated 124 kids since 1989. It requires children to live as the gender they were born with. And 80 percent of its patients — once grown — chose as adults to keep their biological gender.

The opposite outcome was seen by the researchers in the Netherlands who first developed the hormone-blocking treatment. They have treated 100 patients and all chose — as adults — to live as the opposite sex.

So the verdict is still out about how many kids with gender identity disorder will choose sexual reassignment as adults — that is, to live as a member of the opposite sex by changing physical appearance or by having a sex change operation.
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So to me it appears that if you use hormone blockers you will nearly guarantee a cross gender life. If not, puberty may change their mind like I said. But it's your kids. I won't try to tell you how to raise them.

KS1 wrote:

Ratizilla,
You say a person "learns the rest as they go" so a person "learns" to be dyslexic....a person "learns" to have autism??...and did your parents really have to teach you to be a boy?? Really?? Or was it just natural?

A person does learn some things like they "learn" to be closeminded...but no...they dont learn their gender identity.

I answered this one already. Take a baby and completely isolate it from all contact with another person and it will know there's a difference between itself and a turnip, but that's about it. If it never had contact with the opposite sex it'd be impossible for it to comprehend there was a difference. There are documented cases of children being lost in the wild and raised by animals. In many of these cases the children behaved exactly like the animals they lived with and rejected the men who found them. Even though they had heard spoken words in early life, they didn't seem to understand anything said to them.

Raise a boy with absolutely no contact with girls. Don't speak of them or allow him to see any image, or written word about a girl. Then take that boy and introduce him to a girl. He will see a difference, but he won't say "Wow it's a girl" because he'll have no memory of them.

And yes, I agree a person can learn to be closed minded. You've done a magnificent job of putting blinders on yourself. One of you in this thread commented on how things are not just black and white. But yet that's exactly what you want me to believe.

I am most certainly not the one with blinders on my friend. Futhermore, due to my experience with my child...I no for sure that things are not just black and white..

My disagreement with you is that you keep trying to say that somehow us parents caused our kids do be transgendered...and you are just plain wrong about that one.

I never said you specifically caused your child to be transgendered. I said there are likely numerous factors to consider besides just being born that way. Something you don't even know happened could have triggered this. It may be a hormonal imbalance, it may be alot of things. Don't take all the things I think of, and have read about as an accusation.

When I say I hope your child does well, I really mean it. This is a very complex issue with many possible outcomes. I just hope you all don't think there's only one possible way for this to go. If your child as an adult still wishes to be transgender, then I really have no issue with that. As I've said, the child is yours to raise, and I'm not trying to tell you how to do anything. I'm just offering another view.

Not to be picky....but my child doesnt "wish" to be transgender....she just is...but yes it is complex...very complex...and we will always be keeping a close eye on it.

And I do appreciate saying you hope my child does well... she is doing very well now...and I hope she always will...

I think you miss my point. My argument isn't whether the kid is, or just wishes to be TG. That point isn't important to me. I just have questions as to why.