Boston Doctor Offers Sex Change Treatment to Kids

Thank you for watching those segments.
I am thinking you are just someone who may never "get it" but I hope you do someday...

The mother said her child speaks of growing up to have babies because the child's gender identity is as a girl...she said she wont have babies because of course her BODY is that of a boy.

You are confusing gender identity with sexual organs....sometimes unfortunately they dont match. I find it interesting that you are blaming the mother of the girl, Riley, in that show because the dad is supporting his daughter as well.

Did you not get that the decision to allow your child to transition is a gut-wrenching and emotional one....one that is by no means taken lightly by anyone. However it is a necessary, and often life-saving treatment for kids with GID.

I am glad you said, dont make fun of this or punish the child because many parents whose kids are GID do do that thinking it will make the gender varience go away.

The parents and doctors are not "promoting a fantasy" and it becomes clear to parents over time that this is no fantasy....it is hard to wrap your mind around until it happens to you and you see your child struggling.

Good night, I am going to bed.

I was reading what transgender adults think of this, and at least one agreed that this needs to be done very carefully with small children just for one reason I speak of. They said they were not positive until their mid teens that they wanted to always live TG. They suggested not going overboard on very young children until their minds are more fully developed. We all know that hormone treatments will still work to transform an adult, so there's no need to rush it.

If an adult, or even a person in their mid teens is completely convinced they want this, so be it. But a childs mind changes drastically sometimes. The TG person I was reading about said you need to be positive puberty won't change their mind. Such as a rush of hormones making a boy decide he really is turned on by girls and would rather date one than be one.

KitKat wrote:

jessks75 wrote:

Im not juding these people I just dont agree with it, I wouldnt be able to tell these kids/parents from any others.......I simply dont agree with what they are talking about!

Could you please tell us EXACTLY what it is you do not agree with? Who are 'they'? Is it me, a mom of a transgender child? If so, what am I talking about that you do not agree with?

Nothing against you personally
But I dont agree with anything in this thread, plain and simple
Its great that people like you let all of us know about it and shine the light on it, doesnt mean I will agree with it.

Ratzilla wrote:

And yes I still say a 2 year old can't comprehend a thing so complex that even adults who deal with it have difficulty understanding. You expect complex thought in a kid who's typical level of thought is trying to decide whether he likes that mushy feel of a turd in his drawers better than eating snot.

I have read stories of kids who graduate high school by the time they are 11 years old and got to college. These kids are reading novels by the time they are 3. But you say that just one year prior to that novel they were waxing philosophically over the difference between turds and snot?
I'll bet these kids aren't really learning, their parents are making them THINK they are learning. Wait till reality hits them with the fact that they can't really read War and Peace.

Ratzilla wrote:

I was reading what transgender adults think of this, and at least one agreed that this needs to be done very carefully with small children just for one reason I speak of. They said they were not positive until their mid teens that they wanted to always live TG. They suggested not going overboard on very young children until their minds are more fully developed. We all know that hormone treatments will still work to transform an adult, so there's no need to rush it.

If an adult, or even a person in their mid teens is completely convinced they want this, so be it. But a childs mind changes drastically sometimes. The TG person I was reading about said you need to be positive puberty won't change their mind. Such as a rush of hormones making a boy decide he really is turned on by girls and would rather date one than be one.

I hear what you're saying. I was having this discussion elsewhere also.

One misconception is that the parent sees the child acting out a "fantasy" and rushes the child into puberty blockers and hormones, or at least affirms the child's fantasy. But it doesn't work that way. I myself, and the other parents I have come to know personally, spent years trying to gently move the child toward living and thinking according to their biological sex. Even telling the child at one point, "Ok, you're getting old enough that it's time to start acting more like a boy". We even took the girl toys he had been playing with, left over from his older sister, away. He complied and acted the way we wanted him to for quite a while. Then, behavioral problems began, slowly but surely. We didn't even connect those to this for a long time. Eventually, we had a child who was extremely unhappy, fixated on death, and talking about how much he hated his body and wanted to die. At 7 years old! He also started stealing clothes, makeup, etc. from his sister and mother. Of course, we still didn't get it. It wasn't until all of the behavioral problems came to a head during a very dramatic moment that he declared, "Mom, I am a girl!". That was the first time we finally started doing research and found out that there was such a thing as transgenderism in kids. That is when our steep learning curve began. Our child was also very involved in a sport. It had been the single focus of his life, or at least we thought it had been, and he was already being talked about all over the region as having a real future in the sport. When we finally got to talking about possibly letting him transition, he gave that up entirely and immediately. That is how important it was to him.

A child's mind does change drastically as they grow older for sure. The experts all say that gender identity is so innate, however, that it rarely if ever changes. That doesn't mean that we are giving up entirely on that though. I personally think it is possible that if society were not so binary and rigid in its attitudes about what makes a male vs. female, that these kids could see that it is okay to be who they are while still identifying as their biological sex, and not feel the need to change their bodies. We know already that some trans people choose not to have surgery, although that is a personal decision that is made for a variety of reasons. But this is something I plan to revisit with the therapists and my child, and probably will continue to do so periodically as she matures.

On the subject of the drugs, the protocol is to wait until after the start of puberty, monitoring the child closely to see what reactions take place. If the child does not start having severe behavioral and emotional problems with the onset of the beginning stages of puberty, then they probably aren't TG and nothing need be done. But if the bodily changes that start occuring do produce some serious problems, it is important to stop it before it gets too far along and start moving down the road toward hormonal treatment, so that when they are grown they will look like a member of their affirmed gender. But that hormonal treatment, I believe, doesn't start until the mid teens. We are not there yet, so I could have some of the details wrong.

The bottom line of all of this is that the parents don't just immediately accept the child's gender expression and fully support it without a lot of research and counseling. Neither are the medical interventions rushed into. They are undertaken very slowly and carefully with many complex considerations. At the same time, though, there is a concern for eventually having the best, most natural looking, outcome for the child once he/she is grown.

What I find so strikingly interesting is how the few parents of trans children who have posted here have quite the same stories of how their children presented being transgendered. While some of the descriptors may be different, the basis for each of these occurrences is the same: our children knew at a very young age what gender they were, and in each of these children their affirmed gender was different than their birth gender.

If you magnify the number of parents who have posted here by the number that exist througout all of our communities and our country (if not the world), you will find that their stories are also strikingly similar.

You will also find that we have sought the answers for ourselves of why our children are transgendered. Not one of us has taken this lightly, and I promise you each and everyone of us have shed many tears and have spent many sleepless nights worrying over our children. Most importantly, we have found the answer for our children with the help from those in the medical profession and through our research into the meaning of transgender.

We are just like any other parent in that we want our children to be loved, nurtured, and accepted as we prepare them to face this world when they are adults. We want them to have every opportunity afforded to them. To make all of this possible, we have to do our best to educate others about those who are transgender, because without such education the world our children will face could be dark and dangerous.

One thing people need to get straight is sexual orientation (who one's attracted to) has nothing to do with gender orientation. It's not about sex. Frankly, with what we have to deal with, sexual orientation is the least of our worries.

Ratzilla:

When is a phase not a phase? How long does something go on before you have to start looking at it seriously? If my child is going through a phase, then he's been play acting for 14 years.

I have had many conversatoins with older trans people who did not fully tranistion until they were in their 40's. You would probably refer to these people as cross dressers, drag queens or drag kings, or transvestites. But the correct term isi transgendered.

For whatever reason in their earlier life they were suppressed from their real identity. This could have been because their parents didn't understand they were trans and tried to get them to accept the body they had. It could be that they simply did not understand fully for themselves what was going on with them. These older transitioning transgendered people did their best to live life as they thought society dictated. They married, had children, and tried their best to conform to society dictates. However, they most likely found themselves gravitating to activities/associations of the opposite gender (crossdressing, etc.) They probably dealt with many emotional issues since they could not be themselves.

Then at some point they realized they could not longer deny themselves who they really are and they transition. They become the person they were meant to be. But now, there is a wake of people whose lives they have greatly affected by doing this; namely, the lives of their spouse and children. Some families are able to remain in tact throughout the transition, but most fall apart.

Wouldn't it have been much easier for the transgendered person to have been supported and understood early in life by his/her parents who sought medical understanding about their child than to deny their child and insist they live a lie?

Justoo wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

And yes I still say a 2 year old can't comprehend a thing so complex that even adults who deal with it have difficulty understanding. You expect complex thought in a kid who's typical level of thought is trying to decide whether he likes that mushy feel of a turd in his drawers better than eating snot.

I have read stories of kids who graduate high school by the time they are 11 years old and got to college. These kids are reading novels by the time they are 3. But you say that just one year prior to that novel they were waxing philosophically over the difference between turds and snot?
I'll bet these kids aren't really learning, their parents are making them THINK they are learning. Wait till reality hits them with the fact that they can't really read War and Peace.

Oh come on justoo. Those kids don't just toss aside the pacifier at 1 year old and pick up War and Peace. Most schoolastically advanced children are VERY INTENSELY TRAINED by their parents from birth.

Ratzilla wrote:

KitKat wrote:

As for your niece, I would have to ask 'How long'? My child also went through phases. There was the spiderman phase, wore nothing but spiderman costume everyday for months. Then there was the leopard phase, much like your niece's phase, was even happy when he developed a rash from a reaction to a medicine and was sad to see the 'leopard spots' go away. But that also was a few months. My child claiming to be a boy but born with 'mistake' parts has gone on for years, he's 10 now and no sign of letting up.

I can answer the questions two of you are posing by answering this. When your child did the spiderman and leopard phases, did you take them to a therapist? Did you treat these phases the way you did the gender issue? What message did you and those therapists send to the child that you didn't during the spiderman leopard times? Think about that.....

KitKat wrote:

I know you are not in this situation but I'd like to ask you to try to imagine for a moment what you would do if you were? If you say you would 'force' gender approrpriate behavior I can tell you that you will have one VERY miserable kid.

When I or one of the other kids were wanting something really bad and refused to give in my mother had a way of handling it. She usually said "They want ice water in hell too, but they aren't getting it either." Pretty much took care of any situation.

I'll respond to these and another quote on later post. I did not send my child to a therapist regarding the Spidermn or leopard phases. I indulged them, they went away, usually within months. There was no need. These phases didn't cause any distress.

What sent us to the therapist was not that my 'girl' child thought she was a boy, it was that my child was quickly sinking, was depressed, was still having night terrors at age 7, was having anxiety/panic attacks that lasted for hours, and anger, a lot of anger. when we were given the gender disphoria diagnosis it was like all the pieces of the puzzle finally fit. And still, as a parent this was not what i wanted to hear, I did not want to indulge this, I did not want to reinforce this. But when I just got too tired to fight and started letting my child present as who they insisted they were ALL the other problems dissapeared. Even therapy is no longer a part of our lives, it's not needed, our household actually runs pretty smoothly now, but it was chaos before, and it was not because I was a weak parent. I am actually pretty tough on other more trivial issues. To quote Rodney Dangerfield (yes I am old enough to remember him) I am the mom that presents two choices for dinner Take it or Leave it, that's what's served. But to use that same rule on this issue would not be 'mother's way of dealing with it' and that's it. It would be cruel, and my child would suffer in a much more profound way than he would if he doesn't get pizza for dinner every night. Kids don't attempt suicide because their parents don't indulge them, they do when they are not allowed to be who they are, when they are not listened to , when they feel isolated, and this was how my child was feeling and it took this seriously. I would have been a remiss parent had I not.

jessks75 wrote:

KitKat wrote:

jessks75 wrote:

Im not juding these people I just dont agree with it, I wouldnt be able to tell these kids/parents from any others.......I simply dont agree with what they are talking about!

Could you please tell us EXACTLY what it is you do not agree with? Who are 'they'? Is it me, a mom of a transgender child? If so, what am I talking about that you do not agree with?

Nothing against you personally
But I dont agree with anything in this thread, plain and simple
Its great that people like you let all of us know about it and shine the light on it, doesnt mean I will agree with it.

I don't take any of this personally. This is the hand we are delt and we deal with it. What I would really like to understand though is why some people have such a problem with this. It isnt' about agreeing with an opinion. It's an affirmation or denial with the facts. For me, as a parent, I try to educate people about this for the simple reason that I want my child to grow up in a world where he is not looked at like a freak, or bullied, or worse. If my child is allowed to be who he is, which I understand to be hardwired since before birth, I am sure he will be a valuable member of the community. He's very bright and scientifically minded, and if he's allowed to follow his dreams without having to muck through all the social predjudices, he stands a good chance of being someone great.

I think the biggest thing that is hard to believe is the fact that you're all saying that your children exhibited signs at a very young age. That I find very hard to believe. Kids at age 2 are not that self aware. I have a little boy here who sees moms breast feed infants from time to time. He mimicks them by placing a baby doll up to his chest saying he's "feeding his baby". Do I think he's a transgendered child? No. He's 2... copying what he has seen. That's what children do, it's how they learn.

suzyr wrote:

I think the biggest thing that is hard to believe is the fact that you're all saying that your children exhibited signs at a very young age. That I find very hard to believe. Kids at age 2 are not that self aware. I have a little boy here who sees moms breast feed infants from time to time. He mimicks them by placing a baby doll up to his chest saying he's "feeding his baby". Do I think he's a transgendered child? No. He's 2... copying what he has seen. That's what children do, it's how they learn.

You are trying to compare apples to oranges, suzyr. What would you think if your son was 12 and still placing a baby doll to his breast to feed? Would you then ask questions of why? What if he continued this behavior for the 10 years between 2 and 12?

Ask you boy if he is a boy or a girl. Ask him about other children he knows if they are a boy or a girl. For him to answer correctly to each child's gender will show he perceives and understands gender. At this point the question to ask yourself is if he perceives the gender of others why would he not understand his own gender?

If I was on the other side of this conversive spectrum and read the posts of several parents with transgender children whose experiences were strikingly similar, I would be moved to believe the validity of these accounts.

You cannot fathom the relief that a transgendered child's parent feels when they learn they are not alone; that there are many others out there who are dealing with the same issue.

Gender dysphoria is real; it exists in a much larger portion of our populace than you would think. You may have a neighbor, co-worker, fellow churchmember, etc. who is trans and you would never know it. People who have met my 17-year old son and have found out later that he is bilogically female cannot believe it, because his looks and actions are 100% male.

And why would you need to know someone's biolgocial gender anyway? It's not like if I meet someone new that I say "hello, my name is Sally and drop my pants so they can see that I am, indeed, female. No one needs to know what gender I possess in my nether regions.

suzyr wrote:

I think the biggest thing that is hard to believe is the fact that you're all saying that your children exhibited signs at a very young age. That I find very hard to believe. Kids at age 2 are not that self aware. I have a little boy here who sees moms breast feed infants from time to time. He mimicks them by placing a baby doll up to his chest saying he's "feeding his baby". Do I think he's a transgendered child? No. He's 2... copying what he has seen. That's what children do, it's how they learn.

In my case my child was number one. And for the first few years I just noticed that my 'girl' was not like the others. All the other girls I saw were coy, gravitated to dolls right from the start. Mine never did and over the next few years, after my child got into school, she just became more agitated, seemed to hang out exclusively with the boys. Still I didn't worry, and eventually mom said well you're a Tomboy. That seemed very pleasing for a while to her. But it didn't last. Every toy requested for birthday's Christmas, etc., was some sort of truck or race car. I rememeber being both embarresed and heartbroken when a friend of my mom's knitted her a very beautiful doll. She didn't know what to do, She held it out in front of her as if to say What's this?, why are you giving me THAT? We brushed off the incident as shyness. Another time she had been in tears for days and when i could finally decipher what was being said under the sobs I found out someone had said she looked just like a little doll. I later found it it was a particular American girl doll, and she DID look just like it. Most girls would have been delighted by such a compliment, my child was more that NOT.

So is this self awarness? I don't know, I think so, I don't know how complex, but it was certainly complex and strong enough that it was causing real distress. And as I mentioned earlier, ALL other problems dissapeared when i finally just let 'her' go as 'him'.

KitKat wrote:

What sent us to the therapist was not that my 'girl' child thought she was a boy, it was that my child was quickly sinking, was depressed, was still having night terrors at age 7, was having anxiety/panic attacks that lasted for hours, and anger, a lot of anger. when we were given the gender disphoria diagnosis it was like all the pieces of the puzzle finally fit. And still, as a parent this was not what i wanted to hear, I did not want to indulge this, I did not want to reinforce this. But when I just got too tired to fight and started letting my child present as who they insisted they were ALL the other problems dissapeared. Even therapy is no longer a part of our lives, it's not needed, our household actually runs pretty smoothly now, but it was chaos before, and it was not because I was a weak parent.

I assume that other than the gender issue your child lived in a perfect Mary Poppins world where absolutely nothing else could have possibly traumatized them. Ever consider the possibility that a kid could have been molested causing them to focus on gender?

I'll take a moment now to ask opinions. I knew a girl who was very much a tomboy. She wore boys clothes, played boys games, never liked dolls, never wore makeup, or did anything else a girl would typically do. We visited their family off and on, but I never saw her in a dress. She never said anything about wanting to be male. Would you say this could have been a transgender issue that she just never recognized, or admitted? She always seemed rather somber and unhappy. Should she have been evaluated for transgender disorders?

Wow dude, Can you not hear yourself? You have used every excuse in the book to explain or to lay blame. First they are the same frame of mind as suicide bombers, next they are pedophile and now they had to have been sexually molested.

How about this? They are gender confused children and except it for that? Stop trying to explain it so that it fits in your neat little world. Stop trying to lay blame somewhere. You can't except it because it does not fit into your sense of morality, what's right and what's wrong in Ratzilla's little corner of the universe.

I have a question for you. What exactly is it that makes you an expert on children and their mental health issues? How many children do you have? You've been married how many times? What is your college degree in? Your sense of morality is built on what you perceive to be reality, guess what, that does not make it right.

You absolutely have the right to feel that it is wrong, and you certainly have the right to express it. I just do not feel you have to write to use the shotgun effect and blame ALL parents of transgender children for something you have no clue about, no relationship with, no personal involvement in.

Yoiu are right buff. I have no intelligence whatsoever. No right to attempt to analyze a situation. I should just accept all I'm told without question. Your friends offer their alleged facts and I offer my alternate possibilities. I never called them suicide bombers. I said that if you can influence a child to become a suicide bomber anything is possible to implant in their heads.

I also never said anything about the TG kids or their parents being pedophiles. I said studies also suggest that pedophiles might be genetically predisposed to the idea and wondered if the TG parents thought it should be accepted also on that basis. They didn't as I expected.

I asked if it were possible that a TG kid may have been molested because that could have a very profound effect on self image especially in the area of sexuality.

I am trying to discern if there may be alternate reasons to the TG child other than the idea that they know they are the wrong sex even before they know what that penis or vaginas purpose beyond peeing is. If that troubles you, please ban me and make it permanent.

Ratzilla wrote:

I assume that other than the gender issue your child lived in a perfect Mary Poppins world where absolutely nothing else could have possibly traumatized them. Ever consider the possibility that a kid could have been molested causing them to focus on gender?

I'll take a moment now to ask opinions. I knew a girl who was very much a tomboy. She wore boys clothes, played boys games, never liked dolls, never wore makeup, or did anything else a girl would typically do. We visited their family off and on, but I never saw her in a dress. She never said anything about wanting to be male. Would you say this could have been a transgender issue that she just never recognized, or admitted? She always seemed rather somber and unhappy. Should she have been evaluated for transgender disorders?

In our case, that was looked at and the possibility discarded. I would have to say that our child did in fact live in something very close to an ideal "leave it to Beaver"-world as a young child, at least about as close as you can get in the real world. But there are trans kids that grow up in all kinds of situations, some more ideal than others, and there is no obvious correlation.

My answer to your second question would be that the only thing about that situation that would cause any concern would be the fact that she was somber and unhappy, and not because it indicated she was transgender but just that she might have needed some help. There is simply not enough information there to say whether you could suspect gender dysphoria or not. The criteria for diagnosing GID is listed in the DSM-IV listing of mental health issues.

Ratzilla wrote:

Yoiu are right buff. I have no intelligence whatsoever. No right to attempt to analyze a situation. I should just accept all I'm told without question. Your friends offer their alleged facts and I offer my alternate possibilities. I never called them suicide bombers. I said that if you can influence a child to become a suicide bomber anything is possible to implant in their heads.

I also never said anything about the TG kids or their parents being pedophiles. I said studies also suggest that pedophiles might be genetically predisposed to the idea and wondered if the TG parents thought it should be accepted also on that basis. They didn't as I expected.

I asked if it were possible that a TG kid may have been molested because that could have a very profound effect on self image especially in the area of sexuality.

I am trying to discern if there may be alternate reasons to the TG child other than the idea that they know they are the wrong sex even before they know what that penis or vaginas purpose beyond peeing is. If that troubles you, please ban me and make it permanent.

God forbid anyone disagree with Ratzilla, for he can do no wrong. No one said you had no intelligence, no one said you did ot have the right to ask questions. but in asking those questions what right do you have to villify these parents and doctors if you do not know all the facts or have never expirienced it personally?

First, these are not my friends, I have never met a single one of them. I have lived in a household were gender confusion existed. My ex-wife had 2 children that were openly gay and lived as the opposite sex. Neither had actually gone as far as to have any surgeory but there was no doubt i anyone's mind what "sex" they were.

Was there ever a case where a transgender child was forced into it through a parents abuse and desire to have a child of the opposite sex? I don't know personally, but I'm sure it has happend. You can not include every parent of a transgender child in that category.

Was there ever a case were sexual abuse led to a child having gender issues? Absolutley, I am positive of that, there was a case just like that in Colorado Springs. You can not say that every case of a transgender child involves an act of sexual abuse.

What I am saying to you is this, your so dead set against this being a possiblity that you are willing to create excuses to explain it away, come up with scenarios where there is someone to blame. But most important of all, you are so dead set against this that you are not willing to approach it with an open mind. Your mind is made up on the matter and no amount of proof, nothing anyone can say will change your mind.

That my friend, is sad.

I too had a sister who was very much a tomboy growing up and is still not very feminime.
As I stated before GID is very very different than someone being a tomboy or an feminie boys....tomboys do not suffer the level of distress a child with GID does...feminine boys and boys who are simply gay dont want to cut off their penises...they dont want to die because they hate their bodies so much because their bodies do not match their minds.

Thank you for that opinion openminded, and also the rest who have answered me without suggesting I'm just too stupid to understand.

buff, I am asking questions. I am not making accusations. I am asking if these other situations might have existed in their cases, and offering opinions as to why I think so. I have a gay nephew so I suppose that gives me at least a limited right to opinions on sexuality in your view.

I have stated at least twice that I agree there are masuline females and feminine males. But I and others (including one transgender adult I read about) highly question the wisdom in catering to these things at the age of 2 or 3. I do not think it possible for a 2 year old to comprehend what this really means and I'm urging caution. I cannot believe a child of 2 would want to cut their body parts off without someone or something influencing them. I know for a fact that psychologists will sometimes create more of an issue, especially if they are pushing an agenda.

And I can see numerous potential variables that could affect this. You should know that one single event in a childs early life can have a powerfull effect. A girl being exposed to mostly males can feel more male, and a boy who spends the majority of time with women may identify more with them. Like I said, I'm trying to look at this from a wider viewpoint. Something this serious involving kids that young should not just be accepted without question.

Ratzilla wrote:

Thank you for that opinion openminded, and also the rest who have answered me without suggesting I'm just too stupid to understand.

buff, I am asking questions. I am not making accusations. I am asking if these other situations might have existed in their cases, and offering opinions as to why I think so. I have a gay nephew so I suppose that gives me at least a limited right to opinions on sexuality in your view.

I have stated at least twice that I agree there are masuline females and feminine males. But I and others (including one transgender adult I read about) highly question the wisdom in catering to these things at the age of 2 or 3. I do not think it possible for a 2 year old to comprehend what this really means and I'm urging caution. I cannot believe a child of 2 would want to cut their body parts off without someone or something influencing them. I know for a fact that psychologists will sometimes create more of an issue, especially if they are pushing an agenda.

And I can see numerous potential variables that could affect this. You should know that one single event in a childs early life can have a powerfull effect. A girl being exposed to mostly males can feel more male, and a boy who spends the majority of time with women may identify more with them. Like I said, I'm trying to look at this from a wider viewpoint. Something this serious involving kids that young should not just be accepted without question.

I may be wrong, but I don't think anyone has talked about a child of 2 wanting to cut off body parts. Now that I think about it, perhaps someone did say that it happens. That most often starts when they are a few years older, though. Most of the time, no one takes it very seriously at age 2. It is only when looking back on that period of time later that you realize what had really been going on then.

Quote :

I assume that other than the gender issue your child lived in a perfect Mary Poppins world where absolutely nothing else could have possibly traumatized them. Ever consider the possibility that a kid could have been molested causing them to focus on gender?

In my case, we're a two parents one income middle class family. I'm a stay at home mom who watched over the children. Not quite Mary Poppins since I do have to clean my own home and govern my own children. The only traumatic thing that happened to my child growing up was knowing she was born with the wrong body and she didn't know how to express it or change it. She continues to be traumatized as a young adult by being bullied, made fun of and told she is a less valued member of our society just because she has a medical condition that needs correcting.

Before you say she's the way she is because I spent too much time with her, I have two younger sons who are non trans. My sons' reaction to their sister's situation? As long as she's happy, it's fine by them. With that non judgmental reaction, I know I raised my children right.

Ratzilla wrote:

I assume that other than the gender issue your child lived in a perfect Mary Poppins world where absolutely nothing else could have possibly traumatized them. Ever consider the possibility that a kid could have been molested causing them to focus on gender?

Don't be silly ;-) our little world is far from Mary Poppins perfect, but it is normal.
And no, I did not for a minute consider that my child was molested. I was a stay at home mom, my own mom was the only babysitter, and the school was a small private Montessori, with an open door policy (for parents) There is no chance my child was molested.

BUT, more important to the point is that I'm pretty sure molestation is NOT one of the causes of transgenderism. Look around, there seems to be plenty of molested kids and most of them are not TG.

It appeared when these discussions first began here that we were expected to take whatever even toddlers say about their gender without question. I can't just take the word of a small child without question and I will feel somewhat easier about the issue if those parents and therapists involved don't either.

KitKat.. I could easily believe that if a child were molested they might wish they were someone their molester wouldn't be interested in. If a molested child were abused by someone of the same sex it could also cause serious identity problems. I'm not suggesting it's the only possible cause, just that it could happen.

My personal opinion is that some girls would make better boys and vice verse, both because of their personalities, and appearance. But I just think the age you start allowing them to outwardly express this needs to be considered.

Ratzilla wrote:

But I and others (including one transgender adult I read about) highly question the wisdom in catering to these things at the age of 2 or 3. I do not think it possible for a 2 year old to comprehend what this really means and I'm urging caution. I cannot believe a child of 2 would want to cut their body parts off without someone or something influencing them. I know for a fact that psychologists will sometimes create more of an issue, especially if they are pushing an agenda.

And I can see numerous potential variables that could affect this. You should know that one single event in a childs early life can have a powerfull effect. A girl being exposed to mostly males can feel more male, and a boy who spends the majority of time with women may identify more with them. Like I said, I'm trying to look at this from a wider viewpoint. Something this serious involving kids that young should not just be accepted without question.

I think you are saying we are catering to our child's anomaly because we allow them to pick their own clothing, etc. But don't most children get to pick their own clothing by about the age of 3 or 4.

Also, I think some people keep pushing the age down younger and younger to make a point. Personally I do not think a 2 year old is trying to cut off body parts, and from the get go, NO ONE is giving 7 year olds sex change operations. Lets just try to be really clear on the facts.

Further, can we at least agree that all of us parents are using EXTREME caution. NO one wanted this, no one, is pushing this, and I think it safe to say that all of us tried really hard to get our child to be gender normative. Yes, it is serious, very serious, and that's why most of us have a library of reading about this topic under our belts. I'm guessing we know more about out child's condition than do parents of children with diabeties, which by the way is MUCH more rare than gender variency. No parent dealing with this simply 'accept' a single statement from a child saying they are the opposite sex. It's usually after several years of the child saying this that the parents realize there is a problem, and then the therapists and doctor visits start. ANd doctors do not accept it either. there are very few doctors that deal with this and there are numerous tests and therapy sessions to determine if this is the right thing to do.

As far as an agenda....well most of us have probably gone through several therapists and done a lot on online research to determine the 'right' doctor. Personally I was VERY concerned about a therapist having an agenda. That's why we went to a child psychologist and not a therapists that deals with trans issues. The therapist that we went to and on rare occasions still go, definitely has no agenda.

Ratzilla wrote:

It appeared when these discussions first began here that we were expected to take whatever even toddlers say about their gender without question. I can't just take the word of a small child without question and I will feel somewhat easier about the issue if those parents and therapists involved don't either.

KitKat.. I could easily believe that if a child were molested they might wish they were someone their molester wouldn't be interested in. If a molested child were abused by someone of the same sex it could also cause serious identity problems. I'm not suggesting it's the only possible cause, just that it could happen.

My personal opinion is that some girls would make better boys and vice verse, both because of their personalities, and appearance. But I just think the age you start allowing them to outwardly express this needs to be considered.

Well I hope that things have been clarified regarding your first paragraph. I think most parents are saying, in hindsight, that that is the age they started noticing things different. And those things different did not go away. No one is taking 2 year old to have a sex change.

But as far as outwardly appearence goes, well I think any parent soon learns to pick your battles. With my first child, my TG child, I tried to always have her hair just right, her shoes match, and wearing the most stylish outfit. For the record I used to be a hairstylist so I am personally pretty fashion oriented, and my child had the cutest little girl haircuts. BUT...then came baby #2 and I just couldn't keep it up. the battles to get her in a dress were getting ugly and loud. But it was in staged, first no dresses, then more and more 'sporty' looking clothing, and then finally ONLY clothing from the boys dept. When a relative got married I was delighted that my little girl, who was then almost 5, would be the flower girl . She looked beautiful, EXCEPT for her expression. And now, all those photos from the wedding, there you see it, all happy faces and one miserably little 'girl'.

So yes, I considered it all right. I pushed the dresses and cute haircuts as long as I could but it just wasn't working. When I finally gave in to the first shorter haircut..well you should have seen the smile. And THAT face was the face of a beautiful AND happy child.

KitKat wrote:

I'm guessing we know more about out child's condition than do parents of children with diabeties, which by the way is MUCH more rare than gender variency.

As far as an agenda....well most of us have probably gone through several therapists and done a lot on online research to determine the 'right' doctor. Personally I was VERY concerned about a therapist having an agenda. That's why we went to a child psychologist and not a therapists that deals with trans issues. The therapist that we went to and on rare occasions still go, definitely has no agenda.

This is part of my concerns. I recall false information being put out by other groups in the past to make themselves appear more acceptable or desirable. I'm glad in your case that you are attempting to avoid therapists with pro-trans agendas.

Ratzilla wrote:

[I don't and cannot believe a person at the age of 2 is going to say they are the wrong sex unless they've been coached. Such a statement made seriously is beyond the thought processes of a child that age. I think it possible that a play situation may be taken seriously by a parent and exaggerated in the childs, and the parents mind, but I highly doubt a child of 2 has the ability to comprehend this.....

....Oh come on justoo. Those kids don't just toss aside the pacifier at 1 year old and pick up War and Peace. Most schoolastically advanced children are VERY INTENSELY TRAINED by their parents from birth.

So they can be VERY INTENSELY TRAINED from birth but hey cannot comprehend...

Ratzilla wrote:

KitKat wrote:

I'm guessing we know more about out child's condition than do parents of children with diabeties, which by the way is MUCH more rare than gender variency.

As far as an agenda....well most of us have probably gone through several therapists and done a lot on online research to determine the 'right' doctor. Personally I was VERY concerned about a therapist having an agenda. That's why we went to a child psychologist and not a therapists that deals with trans issues. The therapist that we went to and on rare occasions still go, definitely has no agenda.

This is part of my concerns. I recall false information being put out by other groups in the past to make themselves appear more acceptable or desirable. I'm glad in your case that you are attempting to avoid therapists with pro-trans agendas.

Ok, I admit now i am being picky....BUT I'm not quite sure how one would make this 'condition' more desirable, or how one could be PRO TG. I'm PRO my child and PRO understanding of this condition. I'm just not sure what it would mean to be Pro-Trans. Even one of the first therapists that I met who is trans himself said that everyone of his transpatients has tried everything possible to NOT be trans. It didn't end up going to that therapist because I wanted a tharpist that was child therapist first, since my child is a child first and just happens to be trans.

Ratzilla wrote:

It appeared when these discussions first began here that we were expected to take whatever even toddlers say about their gender without question. I can't just take the word of a small child without question and I will feel somewhat easier about the issue if those parents and therapists involved don't either.

Hello all,

I am going to be hijack my husband's login an join the discussion. I have been watching this discussion throughout and kept silent. Just to be clear, if I hijack his login again, I will make sure you know it's me and not him.

Ratzilla,

I really feel the need to address this concept of assuming we just go with the flow of what a two year old has to say. It seems to be a real stumbling block in accepting what all of these families are saying. Our family didn't have ANY clue what was going on with our 2 year old. But between 18 months and about 3 years old she was very active and hated to watch television. But when she (she was he at that time) saw ballet, she could sit for an hour and a half and watch it. What little boy watches ballet with that kind of intensity?? She has an older sister and used to get into her sisters dress up box all the time. In fact our kids fought frequently because she would never play with her own toys, she always took her sisters. We bought her trucks and balls and boy toys galore. Our family started asking in frustration what we should get her for her birthday because she would never play with them. It was an ongoing frustration for all of us - what do we get her? None of us felt comfortable getting girl toys and she really didn't ask for them because, by the time she could speak to make a choice about her gifts, she somehow knew she shouldn't ask for them. When we went out of town she would cry and be difficult after a day or two. When she got to be about four we learned why. She wanted to be back home with "her dresses" , ie, her sister's dress up box. We never let her bring them on the trip. We discouraged this every step of the way. But as my husband has mentioned she was miserable and angry. We could never get to the bottom of it. She was such a mystery to us. When we finally got the diagnosis at age 7 we both thought OHHHH that makes so much sense!! We looked back and saw how many, many things fit exactly into place. It cleared up the mysteries that had dogged us for so long. When she transitioned, the anger and sadness went away. Since transition I have had the incredible joy of truly getting to know my child for the first time, and she is fantastic. She is such a pleasure to live with now. You can question all you want, you can talk about all the therapy you want, you can come up with all the theories you want to spout. I know my child. It is a strange journey, one that is very difficult for outsiders to understand. It is rare and most of us have not spoken out about it before. So I can understand that you don't get it, that it doesn't fit into your value system and all of that. But if you had lived in my home for the past 8 years, and really knew this special child, hopefully you would have the compassion to allow her to live a joyful life and not one of misery.

As to your theory of trauma, our little girl has lived a pretty privileged life. She has had no trauma (except the being tortured by being born in the wrong body). I have been at home with her from birth. We didn't have sitters and my husband and/or I sat and watched all of her activities whenever she went to swimming, sports etc. She started behaving as a girl as soon as it is possible for one to identify behaviors as typically boy or girl.

When our daughter transitioned, some people were upset. Their experiences in life simply couldn't allow them to accept this child. But we have had the experience of some of those people coming back to us and tearfully apologizing to us. Once they really got to know our daughter and saw just how happy and feminine she they finally understood. This child is different than any child they have ever met and they now understand that the decision we have made by allowing her to be herself has set her free. If you were to see her out in public, you wouldn't give her a second look, because to you she would look, walk, talk, and act like any other normal little girl.

And by the way being related to someone who is gay has NOTHING to do with this. Gay people are just as likely as straight people to not understand our kids! In fact sometimes it is worse because they think our kids are like they were as children. They liked to play with cross-gender toys. They often said they wanted to be the other gender. But they did not experience the kind of torture in their bodies that our child experienced. It frustrates me a little because people often think they can get to an understanding of transgender kids through understanding gay kids - you can't .

OMG-- I think the others must be getting really tired of reading the 'same' story over and over. Your (openmind) story is so much like mine, except in reverse.When my child started going by a more male name NO ONE was surprised, but tehre were a few that insisted we need to wait, and some of those were , to our surprise, gay folk. I would so love my child to just be gay, but he isn't, it runs so much deeper than just being a masculine girl.

the sobering statistic for us is the suicide rate for transgender people, it is 50%. When faced with odds like that you listen. I would to wait until he is 18 to allow him to choose his own dress and go through puberty like any other girl, but I know that won't happen, and I cannot risk losing my child.

According to the Amercian Academy of Pediatrics a child's awareness of being a boy or a girl starts in the first year of life and "by age four chidren's gender identity is stable and they know they will always be boy or a girl"

Like other parents I have talked to whose kids have GID, my child was brought up in a loving and nurturing environment.

My child had always shown gender varient behavior though at the time I did not know what was going on. The first occurance that stands out in my mind is when we took "him" swimming for the first time to a "big pool" and "he" was not even two. "His" dad and I were preparing to put him in the pool and "he" absolutley refused to let us take "his" shirt off. Dad and I both realized what was going on and laughed saying, "no your a boy, you can take your shirt off in the pool...see like Daddy."

It wasnt until YEARS later when I heard from other parents with kids with GID who told me their kids did the same thing that I realized that yes at that young age "he" realized "he" was a girl. (By the way something that is amazing to me is that all the parents I have talked to in this same situation...we all have very similar stroies....which is just further evidence to that this is a real...there are certain criteria and behaviors all our children have demonstrated) Also at around this age "he" was also always going to the kitchen drawer and putting a dish towel on "his" head. "He" would walk around with that towel on "his" head always. It was not unitil I saw "him" brushing it that I realized "he" was pretending the towel was hair. And then yes at age two "he" told me "he" was a girl. I would say "no your not, your a boy,,," I was not that worried...we thought it was a phase.

We also bought all boy toys (that sat untouched) all boy clothes...we were raising who we thought was a "boy"
Like Openminded as our child got older Christmas and birthday we very very hard...even Halloween...because we would not buy "him" the girl toys "he" asked for or lt "him" be the princesesses and mermaids "he" wanted to be. It is really sad to see the holidays that should be happy times for any child turn into this big sad ordeal.

It was not until elementary school that my child really started to show severe distress. So we talked to many professional and experts and we did what any loving parent would do....we helped her. And yes, you would never know if you passed by us...she looks and acts just like any other little girl.

This is of course a pretty conservative area and only the people who need to know know, but I have often thought when out, "what would this person think if they knew?" Would they shun my child, think she was some kind of freak?" Its scary --- and nothing her dad and I ever wanted for her or caused....she was born like this. And there is plenty of scientific research that points to that consulsion.

There does need to be more research and more reasearch is going on....but the research is absolutley not pointing to a child be abused or molested as being the cause of GID....it is pointing to biology.

Ratzilla wrote:

I watched the Barbara Walters segments. One mother just reinforced my opinion. She said her son would speak of growing up and having babies, but she said of course it would never happen because he could never become pregnant. He's a boy wanting to be what he's not. His mom knows that yet she continues to let him believe it. She is his biggest problem.

Of course SHE could never become pregnant; SHE was born with a male body. To me, this is like saying that a woman who was born with defective ovaries isn't really a woman. Or the guy who was born with only one leg running a marathon? Why would he try to be a runner when OBVIOUSLY he wasn't born to do that? Or the blind woman who owned operated and taught in a preschool? She can't take care of children! She's BLIND for pete's sake! What about the black or female politician who wanted to run for President of the United States? OMG! The black guy is black and the woman is.... well, a WOMAN! They want to be what they can not, yet someone along the way told them they could do it and they continued to believe it. How unjust for someone to support such an atrocity when they KNEW it was NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!

GENDER is on a spectrum. It is NOT black and white. Think of it as being graphed on a football field: the most feminine women are at one goal and the most masculine men are at the other. In between, you have the rest of us. I, for example, would place myself around the 25 yard line on the woman's side of the field. I love many activities stereotypical of each gender. I prefer jeans and a cute t-shirt to wear, but I can also throw on sweats or get gussied up for a night on the town. I feel comfortable in all of those situations. Then, you have my child. I would place HIM on the 10 yard line on the masculine side of the field. He is all boy, however he has some stereotypical female traits such as compassion, sensitivity, and beautiful eyes.

Another point to consider is this: Gender is a state of mind. The roles for gender are set up by society. I think most of us would agree with that, right? Well, here's the kicker! If SOCIETY didn't care so much how OTHER people dressed, in what activities they participated, to whom they were attracted, etc., TRANSGENDER WOULD NO LONGER EXIST because everyone could BE who they are without the fear of being judged, ridiculed, beaten or murdered. In other words, a person born with a female body who relates more to the mindset of a man could just be a woman with the mindset of a man. BUT THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE! DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY NOT? "She" would no longer need a LABEL, but she would just be able to be herself.

Consider the alternative right now. We can use my child as an example.

My child has a female body, but totally identifies with all things male and always has. From the very beginning, my child preferred rough and tumble play, blocks, trucks, hunting, male role models from television (i.e. pretended to be Spiderman, not Cinderella), preferred boy's clothing, wanted a boy's hairstyle, etc. The list goes on and on. Although I fought this, the preferences persisted. He is now eight-years-old.

Imagine my "daughter" being able to dress the way she feels comfortable, play with toys she enjoys and be treated with respect in reference to her affirmed gender stereotypes. Point blank, it is NEVER going to happen in today's world. NEVER!

The fact of the matter is that SOCIETY doesn't allow our kids to BE who they are. SOCIETY puts all these rules and restrictions on what is correct for a man and what is correct for a woman. Well, who made up the rules? And why is it so bad to break them? It's NOT.

I don't believe that gender identity is biological OR psychological. I think it is societal. It's not the PARENTS who you should be blaming for our kids feeling the way they do - it's SOCIETY. WHY do we have the labels of MALE and FEMALE in the first place????? I'll tell ya why - to give people rules about what is acceptable and not acceptable in our society. Unfortunately, I can not change societal rules during the lifetime of my child so that he can live as he was born and still feel comfortable in his own skin. I can not make people understand his internal mind and heart so that he is comfortable with his body vs. the way he perceives masculinity/femininity. I wish my child didn't have to go through this transition to look like a guy so that he is able to live with himself. However, there is NO OTHER KNOWN WAY and considering the choices of transitioning and the alternative, I choose transitioning. What's the alternative? Depression, self-mutilation, suicidal ideation, suicide.... What would YOU choose for YOUR child?

I have thought about this a lot since I became aware of my son's feelings. In fact, that is the only thing I thought about for MONTHS. I didn't think my life would ever get back to normal, but alas.... finally it is.

Ratzilla wrote:

As I said, don't make fun of this, or punish them. But don't keep saying yes son, you really are a girl, or that will surely be what you get. You parents of these kids are promoting a fantasy. An English man can convert himself to speak, think, and live as if he were born Chinese. But he will always be an English man playing pretend.

How do you know how another person FEELS inside? How can you intelligently argue that my child is trying to live a fantasy? You do not know my child, haven't met my child and you do not love my child. You have not witnessed the distress experienced by my child over MY FORCING HIM to live as a female by this society's standards. You have not rocked my once-5-year-old to sleep because "God gave me the wrong body." You have not seen the total transformation of my child's self-image, simply because mommy let him get a haircut. It is not a fantasy at all. On the contrary, it is a reality... MY reality and that of my baby.

Here's something that I hope I get a response to because I have always wondered:

Why does it matter to you? What or whom is my child hurting by having these feelings? Why is it anyone else's business that my child identifies with the male gender but has a biologically female body? Why is this an issue to everyone else in the world in the first place?

wow..good post weebs

Why would he try to be a runner when OBVIOUSLY he wasn't born to do that?

yet..

Gender is a state of mind.

Sorry, but is your own words.

Ratzilla wrote:

I was reading what transgender adults think of this, and at least one agreed that this needs to be done very carefully with small children just for one reason I speak of. They said they were not positive until their mid teens that they wanted to always live TG. They suggested not going overboard on very young children until their minds are more fully developed. We all know that hormone treatments will still work to transform an adult, so there's no need to rush it.

If an adult, or even a person in their mid teens is completely convinced they want this, so be it. But a childs mind changes drastically sometimes. The TG person I was reading about said you need to be positive puberty won't change their mind. Such as a rush of hormones making a boy decide he really is turned on by girls and would rather date one than be one.

EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT, EXCELLENT! YES! That is precisely with what Dr. Norman Spack from Boston helps parents.

Hormone BLOCKERS are totally reversible. All they do is delay the onset of physical puberty. This buys the parent and the child time. The child advances in age and maturity so that they will better be able to make a life-long decision.

MY plan is to allow my child to begin the first stage of puberty. I will then monitor his affect, mood and overall well-being with the help of a team: me, the pediatrician, the family therapist, the gender specialist, an endocrinologist and my son. At this time, we will determine whether or not my child is experiencing increased anxiety regarding the physical changes of his femal body or not. If so, depending upon the level of anxiety, we will administer hormone blockers. It is not until the age of 16 or older that Hormone Replacement Therapy would be considered.

And the great thing about hormone blockers is that when you stop taking them, puberty progresses as it would have had you never taken the blockers.

Perhaps this is from where the confusion is coming. We, as parents of trans kids, are allowing our children to transition SOCIALLY ONLY. This means allowing them to wear whatever clothing they like, have the hairstyle of their choice, and sometimes allowing them to use a different name/nickname. NO DOCTOR that I have ever heard of will prescribe HORMONES to a little kid. That is NOT what Dr. Spack does. It is all a closely monitored protocol with the best interest of the child as the keystone.

Thank you for bringing this up. It's important to understand.

nitromaxx98 wrote:

Why would he try to be a runner when OBVIOUSLY he wasn't born to do that?

yet..

Gender is a state of mind.

Sorry, but is your own words.

I was being sarcastic. There HAVE been runners with one leg who have competed in marathons. There HAVE been blind women who owned, operated and worked in preschools, and there IS a black man and a woman running for President. GET IT??? I was saying that people ALWAYS have opinions about why others should/shouldn't/can/can't do certain things. Even if it the opinion of the majority, doesn't mean it's so.

yes..... gender is a state of mind. What's the point? I don't understand.

Gender is how you perceive yourself in reference to the rules of society. What makes a man? Don't try to tell me it's that he has a penis. That would be total I know PLENTY of people with penises and they are NOT all men.

Regarding the sexual abuse theory, when I first figured out that my child was suffering from Gender Dysphoria, I considered this as a possible cause. I also considered the fact that I was divorced. I thought that the way I was raising my child was to blame for a while. I considered that my "daughter" saw how spoiled my nephews were and thought that "she" would get the same treatment if "she" were a boy. I tried to blame LOTS of outside factors. I can totally see why someone who has not experienced this first-hand would do the same.

I was fairly certain that my child was not abused since I had been a stay at home mom and my parents were the only sitters. I suspected my ex-husband (with NO REASON) because I needed to place the blame on SOMEONE. I requested that the therapist explore the possibility of sexual or physical abuse and she obliged; nothing turned up.

I guess it is still possible, but I doubt it.

I also realize that my divorce did not cause my son's Gender Dysphoria, nor did the way I raise my kids or my nephews tendency to get NO PUNISHMENTS or CONSEQUENCES for inappropriate behavior. My kid is just my kid and there is nothing I could do to change it.

I guess I'm not really at a stage of total acceptance yet, though, because if I had a magic wand, I would make my child NOT trans. He has a hard road ahead of him, one that NO PARENT would wish upon their child. Don't get me wrong, I love him whether he is a boy or a girl - doesn't matter to me at this point - but just for the sake of simplicity and an easier life, I wish it weren't so.

That's why I am here at this forum. I want my son to have a better life than trans folk ten years ago. I want there to be people in every city and town in America who will stand up for and protect my child when I am not with him. I want people to stop discriminating against my child because he isn't like them. I want him to have a GOOD LIFE. He soooooooo deserves it.

Quote :

That's why I am here at this forum. I want my son to have a better life than trans folk ten years ago. I want there to be people in every city and town in America who will stand up for and protect my child when I am not with him. I want people to stop discriminating against my child because he isn't like them. I want him to have a GOOD LIFE. He soooooooo deserves it.

You want your son to have a better life than "NOW". I'm hoping for the same because most trans folks now live a marginal lifestyle.

amom wrote:

Quote :

That's why I am here at this forum. I want my son to have a better life than trans folk ten years ago. I want there to be people in every city and town in America who will stand up for and protect my child when I am not with him. I want people to stop discriminating against my child because he isn't like them. I want him to have a GOOD LIFE. He soooooooo deserves it.

You want your son to have a better life than "NOW". I'm hoping for the same because most trans folks now live a marginal lifestyle.

Yes. I stand corrected. When I typed that I was thinking about how things can get better over time.

just a "by the way..."

by the way, do you know for certain that the teacher in your school, the bus driver, the person in the stall next to you---do you know for certain that they are NOT transgender. Most times you will almost never notice the person passing you on the street, the person next to you on the elevator. If you passed my son in a hall or mens room, or sat next to him, you would only see him for what he is-A BOY. Why do you care if he stands up or sits down to pee? By the way, my husband sits down to pee a lot of the time! What do you care if he lives his life as a man but began his life as a female? By the way, we all "began" life as a females. What do you care if his testosterone levels are higher than yours? By the way, MY testosterone is overly high-and by the way-I have NEVER questioned my gender-female.

Quote :

I'll take a moment now to ask opinions. I knew a girl who was very much a tomboy. She wore boys clothes, played boys games, never liked dolls, never wore makeup, or did anything else a girl would typically do. We visited their family off and on, but I never saw her in a dress. She never said anything about wanting to be male. Would you say this could have been a transgender issue that she just never recognized, or admitted? She always seemed rather somber and unhappy. Should she have been evaluated for transgender disorders?

IF she had expressed that she was not female, IF she had expressed that she would rather die than be seen as female, IF she became distraught over her developing body, IF she had expressed her absolute knowlege that she was a boy, THEN the answer would be HELL YES.

I was molested by an uncle for years, and I have high testosterone levels..and AGAIN I have NEVER questioned MY gender. I was a stay at home mom, no sitters for my child, and at times and extremely overprotective mother to all of our children. Married over 22 yrs..raised 2 foster children-girls..born girls, still girls who actualy had been abandoned and molested-I ran a daycare for 5 yrs-had taken every child development and parenting course out there to fulfill licensing and learned a lot. My home is calm, loving, open, with no drug abuse or alcohol abuse or physical abuse..we dont even smoke...we are not beating our kids over the head with a bible either. The only trauma our children suffered was the loss of one of our foster girls...she was a relative and was killed in a car accident, and the death of my mother from cancer. There has been no sexual, physical or psychological abuse in our home or our life. BANG goes your theory-or I would be trans too having lived thru sexual, physical and mental trauma and torture in my own life. Our children had no knowlege of the abuse I suffered either-until now at an older age I have mentioned it.

Quote :

It appeared when these discussions first began here that we were expected to take whatever even toddlers say about their gender without question. I can't just take the word of a small child without question and I will feel somewhat easier about the issue if those parents and therapists involved don't either.

Nobody in my support group and I don't believe that anyone HERE took the word of a two-year-old and ran to a therapist. Generally with trans children, the "symptoms" can begin as early as age 2 but the parents do not recognize them as symptoms until much later. It is only in hindsight that they look back and say, "Ohhhhhh. Remember on Billy's 3rd birthday, he wanted to wear a dress? We thought it was because his SISTER was wearing a dress, but maybe it was because he identifies as female."

In my case there were many "signs" that my child was trans before he actually came out and said, "Mom, I am NOT a girl; I am a boy!" Even with this declaration, I still did not consider that there was a real issue at hand. Instead, I just thought it was a phase that my child would outgrow. He didn't.

He became more persistent over time and more verbal as he got older. He became more and more distressed. It was only after he told me that God gave him the wrong body that it hit me.. THAT is when I started researching, soul-searching, and trying to find an answer.

I did not think that my toddler who only liked to play with trucks and balls - the child who hid the baby dolls behind the toybox - was trans. I did not think that my three-year-old who cried when I put a dress on them was trans. When my four-year-old wanted a haircut and a football, I did not think he was trans. When my five-year-old told me he was a boy, STILL I did not make a connection.

AFTER I made the connection and received a diagnosis of "Gender Identity Disorder" (my child met all 6 criteria listed in the DSM-IV), I looked back at what I could have done wrong. The answer I came up with was "Nothing. I didn't do anything wrong. My child had always been showing these tendencies, but I was just too blind to realize it at the time."

I hope this helps to clarify the age thing. Two-year-olds aren't saying they are the gender opposite of what their biology states and parents are not rushing to see therapists and administer hormone replacement. The entire process of even parental ACKNOWLEDGMENT is a long one. It is one in which the child is struggling to tell an adult how they really feel and the parents are blowing them off. I look back and think how frustrating that must have been for my child. I truly wish I would have "gotten it" sooner.

Justoo wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

[I don't and cannot believe a person at the age of 2 is going to say they are the wrong sex unless they've been coached. Such a statement made seriously is beyond the thought processes of a child that age. I think it possible that a play situation may be taken seriously by a parent and exaggerated in the childs, and the parents mind, but I highly doubt a child of 2 has the ability to comprehend this.....

....Oh come on justoo. Those kids don't just toss aside the pacifier at 1 year old and pick up War and Peace. Most schoolastically advanced children are VERY INTENSELY TRAINED by their parents from birth.

So they can be VERY INTENSELY TRAINED from birth but hey cannot comprehend...

A parrot can be intensely trained in speech but it doesn't mean it comprehends the meaning. There are very very rare cases of super intellect, but most of those children advanced beyond the norm in schoolastics had parents who sit and showed them flash cards as they fed them strained carrots. In effect, they are living tape recorders.

I had a nephew who could boggle the mind with mathematics. He could whip out a problem half a page long without pausing to think, but he couldn't spell or use common sense half the time and that led to his death.

OpenMinded wrote:

And by the way being related to someone who is gay has NOTHING to do with this. Gay people are just as likely as straight people to not understand our kids! In fact sometimes it is worse because they think our kids are like they were as children. They liked to play with cross-gender toys. They often said they wanted to be the other gender. But they did not experience the kind of torture in their bodies that our child experienced. It frustrates me a little because people often think they can get to an understanding of transgender kids through understanding gay kids - you can't .

First off, I didn't bring up the gay issue, buff did. But this is hilarious because my gay nephew is convinced by his own "experts" that gays are naturally superior in intellect to all of us.

Since you all ganged up on me while I sit here without electrical power to reply, I may not answer all. But I'll give a brief observation. You call this a "disorder" yet you wish me to think the child is not simply obsessive. Most any other obsession is considered a mental illness. I really don't care if it's a brain defect, a hormone imbalance, or created by something the child was exposed to. It's the only thing I've ever heard called a disorder that nobody affected seems to want to cure.

weebs123 wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

I watched the Barbara Walters segments. One mother just reinforced my opinion. She said her son would speak of growing up and having babies, but she said of course it would never happen because he could never become pregnant. He's a boy wanting to be what he's not. His mom knows that yet she continues to let him believe it. She is his biggest problem.

Of course SHE could never become pregnant; SHE was born with a male body. To me, this is like saying that a woman who was born with defective ovaries isn't really a woman. Or the guy who was born with only one leg running a marathon? Why would he try to be a runner when OBVIOUSLY he wasn't born to do that? Or the blind woman who owned operated and taught in a preschool? She can't take care of children! She's BLIND for pete's sake! What about the black or female politician who wanted to run for President of the United States? OMG! The black guy is black and the woman is.... well, a WOMAN! They want to be what they can not, yet someone along the way told them they could do it and they continued to believe it. How unjust for someone to support such an atrocity when they KNEW it was NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN!

Sorry, that's just silly. If your daughter was born with defective ovaries she'd still be female, but if your son were born with defective ovaries he wouldn't be your son. What physical limitation or defect a person is born with and what your child wishes were reality are not the same thing.

weebs123 wrote:

GENDER is on a spectrum. It is NOT black and white. Think of it as being graphed on a football field: the most feminine women are at one goal and the most masculine men are at the other. In between, you have the rest of us. I, for example, would place myself around the 25 yard line on the woman's side of the field. I love many activities stereotypical of each gender. I prefer jeans and a cute t-shirt to wear, but I can also throw on sweats or get gussied up for a night on the town. I feel comfortable in all of those situations. Then, you have my child. I would place HIM on the 10 yard line on the masculine side of the field. He is all boy, however he has some stereotypical female traits such as compassion, sensitivity, and beautiful eyes.

Oh, so now nobody is really male or female. You get this idea from that metrosexual thing?

weebs123 wrote:

Another point to consider is this: Gender is a state of mind. The roles for gender are set up by society. I think most of us would agree with that, right? Well, here's the kicker! If SOCIETY didn't care so much how OTHER people dressed, in what activities they participated, to whom they were attracted, etc., TRANSGENDER WOULD NO LONGER EXIST because everyone could BE who they are without the fear of being judged, ridiculed, beaten or murdered. In other words, a person born with a female body who relates more to the mindset of a man could just be a woman with the mindset of a man. BUT THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE! DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHY NOT? "She" would no longer need a LABEL, but she would just be able to be herself.

Consider the alternative right now. We can use my child as an example.

My child has a female body, but totally identifies with all things male and always has. From the very beginning, my child preferred rough and tumble play, blocks, trucks, hunting, male role models from television (i.e. pretended to be Spiderman, not Cinderella), preferred boy's clothing, wanted a boy's hairstyle, etc. The list goes on and on. Although I fought this, the preferences persisted. He is now eight-years-old.

Imagine my "daughter" being able to dress the way she feels comfortable, play with toys she enjoys and be treated with respect in reference to her affirmed gender stereotypes. Point blank, it is NEVER going to happen in today's world. NEVER!

So let's see. You want boys in dresses to be able to shower with the guys, or should he shower with the cheerleaders?

My personal opinion is you are just giving in instead of explaining to the kid that transgender is like going to the bathroom. They might feel they have to do it, but they don't need to make a public display out of it.

Expecting society to be understanding is fine. But expecting all of society to bend over backwards to make you feel comfortable about what you all call a disorder is asking a bit much.

I treat minorities with respect when I meet them. I'm not rude to gays, or anyone else I happen to meet. If I met a TG kid, or adult I'd treat them respectfully. I might even compliment them. But I'm no ones ass kisser.

jessks75 wrote:

KitKat wrote:

jessks75 wrote:

Im not juding these people I just dont agree with it, I wouldnt be able to tell these kids/parents from any others.......I simply dont agree with what they are talking about!

Could you please tell us EXACTLY what it is you do not agree with? Who are 'they'? Is it me, a mom of a transgender child? If so, what am I talking about that you do not agree with?

Nothing against you personally
But I dont agree with anything in this thread, plain and simple
Its great that people like you let all of us know about it and shine the light on it, doesnt mean I will agree with it.

I agree with Jess here. While you, KitKat have every right to your feelings for some reason I get the feeling that the parents of transgender individuals dont want to allow people that dont support the issue the right to their own feelings. Bit hypocritical in my opinion.

I can understand people of ANY minority type group wanting equal rights etc. What I do NOT understand is their constant need to ram it down everyone elses throat.

luv2cook wrote:

I can understand people of ANY minority type group wanting equal rights etc. What I do NOT understand is their constant need to ram it down everyone elses throat.

I agree completely, L2C.

Quote :

I treat minorities with respect when I meet them. I'm not rude to gays, or anyone else I happen to meet. If I met a TG kid, or adult I'd treat them respectfully. I might even compliment them. But I'm no ones ass kisser.

This tells me that even though you may or may not get it, you're a nice enough person to at least show respect for others. For that I thank you. AND, I do respect your right to your opinion, as long as it does not infringe on my child's or anyone's human rights.

To be honest, I don't always get it either but I understand the need to be ones true self. I love my child and I support her. As a parent, I can't ask for anything more than to see my children happy and healthy, rich would be nice too so they don't come home for money in my old age but that may be too much to ask for.

I'm sorry some of you think that I'm trying to ram whatever IT is down your throat. It has never been my intention but just to share a part of my life, my child's life so that you know this could happen to any one of us. Rejection by and of family is huge and I'm lucky, very lucky that my child is still in my life and vice versa.