Arizona Gov signs immigration bill.

In certain parts of this area all hell is breaking lose. Of course this law will not go into effect for at least 90 days and in that period I am sure numerous lawsuits and such will be filed. Arizona's law orders immigrants to carry their alien registration documents at all times and requires police to question people if there's reason to suspect they're in the United States illegally. It also targets those who hire illegal immigrant laborers . Obama is speaking out against this law and stating his admin will look into the legal aspects of it. I have to say regardless of all the marches and protests at the state offices, according to local polls more wanted this bill passed then not. I was amazed that one of the arguments was that illegals do support the state in sales tax regardless if no income tax was paid. That one really caused some rage as all who live here do the same thing and still have to keep a date with the IRS. Hispanics argue that it will become just like nazi Germany with law enforcement targeting certain areas and Sheriff Joe leading the charge.

I carry my driver's license with me everywhere I go. I had to present my birth certificate in order to receive that DL. If I get pulled over, I have to show the officer my license, stating who I am and where I live, among other things. It's the law. If these people are here legally, there should be nothing to worry about. If not, send 'em home. That is also the law.

My dad's family came to the US in 1866. They had to sign a paper stating that they would be loyal to this nation and give up all allegiance to the king of Prussia and their former nation, aka Germany. That meant pay their taxes too as required. If Mexicans don't like it F**k em. Don't let the border gate hit you on the ass as you leave.

If war breaks out between the US and Mexico, will they open a lot of interment camps?

Mexico is too lazy to fight a war. They operate like cockroaches..kinda settle in and proliferate....frack em

Justoo wrote:

If war breaks out between the US and Mexico, will they open a lot of interment camps?

We could ruin what little economic strength they have if we all just mow our own lawns.

And clean our own damn houses.

Land of the Free!!

Home of the brave!

Land of the free and home of the brave is a phrase that was never intended to include those wanting free housing, sirloin steaks, or medical care on someone elses taxpayer money, while evading taxes themselves, obtaining other benefits of a US citizen without citizenship, or illegal entry to the country to begin with.

I doubt it was intended to mean those who hire them under the table either.

This law will solve nothing, and is just ONE MORE erosion of 'our' freedoms. One more excuse for cops to pull over, harass, and assault people at will. One more reason for illegals to hide from the law, avoid paying taxes, reporting crimes, or having anything to do with the U.S. legal system.

Naw... that CAN'T have anything to do with the criminal culture among these people. They're a bunch of brown people breaking the law just to be a dick, right?

There's a REASON why the government- on a national level- won't do anything about illegal immigration. Powerful lobbies- particularly the agricultural industry- WANT cheap labor. They want a permanent underclass that they can exploit. Illegals don't complain; if they do, they'll be the first to get deported or otherwise put into the 'criminal justice' system. Look at the slaughterhouses in Dodge City and the chicken processing plants in Missouri and Arkansas. Those places are unsanitary shitholes, staffed almost ENTIRELY by illegal immigrants. Why? 'Cause American workers won't put up with that shit. But illegals have to... or they have to move on. YOU can't compete with a man who has nothing to lose and who has NO legal protections. Gotta love the 'free market'.

Unless and until the government is willing to actively go after employers to BLATANTLY violate the law and employ illegals- not only with fines that make the risk untenable, but with CRIMINAL penalties as well- the influx of Mexicans and Central Americans will never stop. I don't care how many walls you put up, how many rednecks sit in lawn chairs along the border, how many new powers you give to the cops... as long as people down south have little choice except to break OUR laws or watch their kids starve (thank NAFTA for that)... they will find a way to get here. And they'll take your jobs.

IMO, the Mexicans are not the bad guys here. They're just working slobs like us, trying to get by. And when you support measures like this, targeting individuals who don't have the correct paperwork but who aren't otherwise hurting anybody, all you're doing is helping the Agribusiness Welfare Queens corner the labor market. They're taking advantage of YOUR own racism and nativism to line their own pockets. You THINK you're sticking up for your own interests... but all you're doing perpetuating an underclass that you can't compete with, and breeding the crime that you bitch about.

Bighead wrote:

This law will solve nothing, and is just ONE MORE erosion of 'our' freedoms.

Bighead wrote:

Unless and until the government is willing to actively go after employers to BLATANTLY violate the law and employ illegals- not only with fines that make the risk untenable, but with CRIMINAL penalties as well- the influx of Mexicans and Central Americans will never stop.

So you don't want laws to hold illegal immigrants responsible, but you want laws enforced against the employers who hire them?

Isn't that kinda like saying inner city gangs are all whitey's fault? I agree the employers should follow the rules too, but I don't see it as an excuse. Try to go to Mexico as a US resident and apply for state aid, or free housing, or tell them you don't want to pay required taxes or fees and see what they say.

Quote :

So you don't want laws to hold illegal immigrants responsible, but you want laws enforced against the employers who hire them?

Exactly.

Because that would solve the problem with minimal infringement on individual freedoms.

No it wouldn't Bighead. As long as you only want to punish the employers it won't stop the women using anchor babies to get free food cards, housing, and medical, and it won't stop those coming here on legit work permits from providing a home for their uncles, cousins, grandparents, etc., who aren't legal.

And individual liberties in the US only apply to US citizens in the first place. The best solution is to make immigration laws so that it's less expensive to gain citizenship, then require anyone applying for it to pay taxes, register for the draft, or return to thier homeland if here beyond 2 years without application for citizenship, or proof of a legit work permit, and proof taxes are being paid. To successfully stop illegal immigration and abuse of the system, there must be enforcement with both employers of illegals and the illegals themselves.

Being eligible for the rights and benefits of US citizens should require bonifide effort to become one, and nothing you can say will change my opinion on that.

Actuallay, Bignose is correct on this one. We'll never stop the illegals from coming here as long as there is a demand for them, just as we'll never stop the flow of illegal drugs as long as there is a demand for them. Making the consequences of being caught hiring illegals outweigh the benefits of hiring them is the best way to stop it.

And Ratzo, nobody should be getting welfare who doesn't truly need it. That includes the corrupt governments of countries such as Mexico, where US foreign aid routinely ends up in the personal accounts of government officials. It's the same "too big to fail" mentality that fueled the bailouts of mismanaged giant financial institutions and auto companies. It just seems that as long as they give lip service to the so-called war on drugs and don't align themselves with idiots like Chavez or Castro, the US government is willing to hand them cash with a wink and a nudge. We seem to be okay with that. It's like focusing on relieving the symptoms of a disease while ignoring the cause.

Bighead wrote:

And when you support measures like this, targeting individuals who don't have the correct paperwork but who aren't otherwise hurting anybody, all you're doing is helping the Agribusiness Welfare Queens corner the labor market.

How so?

The Other One wrote:

Actuallay, Bignose is correct on this one. We'll never stop the illegals from coming here as long as there is a demand for them, just as we'll never stop the flow of illegal drugs as long as there is a demand for them. Making the consequences of being caught hiring illegals outweigh the benefits of hiring them is the best way to stop it.

First off, illegals coming here because there is a demand is not quite the same as drugs. The demand for the drugs comes from rich and poor alike while the demand for illegals comes only from those with money to hire them. If you sit there and smoke a joint after work it really only affects you and your family. If you hire illegals you take away jobs, send US dollars out of the country, and lose tax money that should have been paid by those workers. And the safety of these illegals on the job is rarely considered.

Now as to saying Bighead was right, I guess you didn't really read my post. I said.....

Ratzilla wrote:

To successfully stop illegal immigration and abuse of the system, there must be enforcement with both employers of illegals and the illegals themselves.

I guess by default, my teenage niece, whom was caught driving without a license, has a civil rights case..

By default, she's entitled..

Ratzilla wrote:

The demand for the drugs comes from rich and poor alike while the demand for illegals comes only from those with money to hire them.

Nothing will ever be done about this until someone with enough public support bucks the two political parties. The Republicans are protecting the business community who contribute to them. They want the illegals here for cheap labor. However, since they tend to vote Democrat, the Reps don't want them here to vote. The Democrats want them here to vote, whether legitimately or not. However, the Dems need the financial support from the unions, so they don't want these Undocumented Democrats to be working. So the Dems push to keep allowing them access to government services such as healthcare and welfare.

It's a Catch 22 situation as long as we keep electing people who stay in line with the national parties. If we find a constitutionally sound method of keeping people from hiring illegals, and make the offense a serious felony, the problem will go away. And we won't have to round up the illegals who are already here. If the job market dries up for them, they'll go home on their own. This has been true in the past couple of years due to the economy.

I agree with alot of that EP, but it still wouldn't stop the ones coming here for welfare, or the illegal ones who come live with relatives that are legally here, and I'm sure democrats don't mind trading our tax dollars for votes.

Oh Jesus Fukcing Christ- I agree with EP for two posts in a row. Something is very wrong here.

I've actually been reconsidering my knee-jerk position on this issue. It isn't as cut & dry as I'd made it out to be earlier. I don't NECESSARILY have a big problem with this Arizona legislation in and of itself- our immigration laws, such as they are, should be enforced.

Problem is that the current situation is pretty much unenforceable in any consistent manner and on any large scale- especially via this Arizona Strategery. It would be much easier and more effective to enforce these laws via employers- they're out in the open anyhow. I'll grudgingly admit that I can't argue against harassing, arresting, and deporting individual illegal immigrants- but that won't solve the problem. We don't have the man-power or the political will to round up and ship off TENS OF MILLIONS of people. It will never happen. But we can an do regulate the hell out of employers... no reason we couldn't do the same with this issue. If employing illegals suddenly becomes too risky and no longer profitable- they'll have no reason to be here. The current economic situation already demonstrates that these people will leave when the jobs leave.

SciFi wrote:

Bighead wrote:

And when you support measures like this, targeting individuals who don't have the correct paperwork but who aren't otherwise hurting anybody, all you're doing is helping the Agribusiness Welfare Queens corner the labor market.

How so?

I thought I'd spelled it out in my previous rant, but I'll try again.

Illegal immigrants are America's permanent (and legally enforced) underclass. Because of their illegal status (another way of saying that they don't have the correct paperwork), they actively avoid law enforcement. I.e., they don't complain; if they do- they'll be fired and/or deported. They work in dangerous and otherwise shitty working conditions... and they'll do it for very little money. You and I, and most Americans, can't/won't compete with that. Therefore we're out of a job.

Ratzilla wrote:

So you don't want laws to hold illegal immigrants responsible, but you want laws enforced against the employers who hire them?

Bighead wrote:

I'll grudgingly admit that I can't argue against harassing, arresting, and deporting individual illegal immigrants- but that won't solve the problem. We don't have the man-power or the political will to round up and ship off TENS OF MILLIONS of people. It will never happen. But we can an do regulate the hell out of employers... no reason we couldn't do the same with this issue. If employing illegals suddenly becomes too risky and no longer profitable- they'll have no reason to be here. The current economic situation already demonstrates that these people will leave when the jobs leave.

A criminal is a criminal is a criminal, whether the crime is crossing the border illegally, hiring an illegal or short-selling your own company's stock when you have inside knowledge that it's going to fail.

Um, now I hear that Utah would like to enact the same law AZ has.

I suspect that other states will too, if the feds don't secure the borders. When we are not protected by those who should protect us, we have no recourse but to defend ourselves.

Bighead wrote:

I thought I'd spelled it out in my previous rant, but I'll try again.

Illegal immigrants are America's permanent (and legally enforced) underclass. Because of their illegal status (another way of saying that they don't have the correct paperwork), they actively avoid law enforcement. I.e., they don't complain; if they do- they'll be fired and/or deported. They work in dangerous and otherwise shitty working conditions... and they'll do it for very little money. You and I, and most Americans, can't/won't compete with that. Therefore we're out of a job.

You did spell it out well. It was the "Agribusiness Welfare Queens" which threw me. Got it, now. I appreciate it, Bighead.

Justoo wrote:

I suspect that other states will too, if the feds don't secure the borders. When we are not protected by those who should protect us, we have no recourse but to defend ourselves.

That's how I see it. Correct me if my memory is off, but I think it was you who once said it was tough to watch someone who can't even speak english buying quality steak on a government card while you had to work for a living, pay for their card with taxes, and settle for the cheaper meats.

I agree 100% that action should be taken against employers trying to cheat with cheap benefit free labor, but the freeloaders soaking up the government handouts won't give a crap if nobody ever hires another illegal. And I'd bet a days pay that local law enforcement already has a good idea who's here legally and who's not, and who hires them. To enforce this it would have to be on the local level and is achievable.

How much do you make in a day?

Blackie Kuhn wrote:

How much do you make in a day?

Who do you refer to, and how does it pertain to the discussion?

SHAKIRA is here today to protest the new immigration bill. What do I do now? How do I reconcile my support of the law in the face of such a towering intellecutal like Shakira? Not when the most important thing out of her mouth so far has been "you know my hips don't lie." Just kidding Shakira fans out there..............

lowrider wrote:

SHAKIRA is here today to protest the new immigration bill. What do I do now? How do I reconcile my support of the law in the face of such a towering intellecutal like Shakira? Not when the most important thing out of her mouth so far has been "you know my hips don't lie." Just kidding Shakira fans out there..............

lowrider wrote:

SHAKIRA

Who?

Ratzilla wrote:

Blackie Kuhn wrote:

How much do you make in a day?

Who do you refer to, and how does it pertain to the discussion?

You bet a days wages ...I won't bet against a pittance..therefore I ask what I'm betting against

Blackie Kuhn wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

Blackie Kuhn wrote:

How much do you make in a day?

Who do you refer to, and how does it pertain to the discussion?

You bet a days wages ...I won't bet against a pittance..therefore I ask what I'm betting against

Probably more than a typical day of Social Security.