Your military in action

Despite Obama's (apparent) reversal in policy, those torture pictures are leaking out anyway. Makes me wonder if this was the plan all along: Obama maintains political cover of safeguarding 'the troops'... knowing all along that the torture photos in question WILL leak out.

So without further adieu- here's what our version of "freedom" looks like in other parts of the world:

Warning- the following link contains multiple disgusting images of (often innocent*) people being tortured for political purposes**.

If you support the war, then this is what you support:
http://www.uruknet.info/?s1=55&p=20656&s2=15









* http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2009/05/most-of-those-tortured-were-innocent.html
** http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/14/iraq.torture/index.html

I aint got no problems with them photos. No white guys on the recieving end. Just rag heads, who cares? Go get them. They should just call open season on them and let everyone have a crack at them.

Start killing them and then burry them with a hog. Nuke Mecca! Nuke Jeruselum! Nuke Cairo! Nuke them all! If you aint Christian you aint shit.

mikecc wrote:

Nuke Mecca! Nuke Jeruselum! Nuke Cairo! Nuke them all! If you aint Christian you aint shit.

Christians think that if Jerusalem falls the world will be destroyed in anger by the great primate in the sky.

But let's analyze..... Christians want to kill Muslims..... Jews want to kill Muslims..... Muslims want to kill Christians and Jews.....Each one says the other is evil.

Beam me up Scotty.....

Like GC said....My God has a biger dick than Your god.

disgusting

I have no problem with it , not one bit

911 victims

let us not forget

Beheading of Nick Berg


Watch this video all the way to the end or fast forward it to the last minute. You will see what these people are like.

LukeTHr wrote:

I have no problem with it , not one bit

911 victims

let us not forget

And the FACT that Iraq had NOTHING to do with 9/11... this doesn't sway your opinion one bit?

I suppose when you base your opinions on fear & hate, reason goes out the window.

LukeTHr wrote:

911 archive

911 - see the horror

jumping to escape the flames

I bet these folks would not have a problem with torture to obtain info to stop another event like this from happening

As one link the I posed in the OP explained (and I assume you didn't bother to read), these Iraqi detainees were absolutely NOT tortured in order to obtain information that might prevent some imminent threat. They were tortured as part of an ill-conceived effort to 'prove' the Bush administration's flawed ASSumptions about a link between Al Qaeda and Saddam. In other words, they were tortured in an attempt to salvage some political cover for Bush & Party. Or one COULD say "for political purposes".

LukeTHr wrote:

.... and they rejoice

Again, does it concern you that the people you cite are NOT Iraqi? Or do you simply make no distinction so long as we're talking about brown people who aren't big fans of Amerika and her policies?

Seems that most people are too simple to make the distinction between honest criticism and "anti-Amerikanism"... so I don't expect this to be understood or well-recieved by several folks here. But it's a simple fact that people around the world (and PARTICULARLY in the middle east) are not entirely off-base in hating Amerika. We HAVE made some real dickhead moves over there. And despite the political fiction that was thrown around after 9/11, those people don't hate us for no reason. And they certainly don't 'hate us for our freedom':

http://www.kersplebedeb.com/mystuff/s11/churchill.html

LukeTHr wrote:

Beheading of Nick Berg


Watch this video all the way to the end or fast forward it to the last minute. You will see what these people are like.

So nasty behavior on THEIR part justifies unnecessary, brutal, and counterproductive behavior on OUR part?

I guess you've conveniently overlooked the fact that many of these torture victims have NO connection whatsoever to those doing the beheadding- in fact (as you'd recall if you'd bothered to read the second link in the OP), many were innocent bystanders.

Luke- you've never impressed me in the past as being particularly bright... but are you really THIS dense? Are you really willing to justify ANY action taken by your government so long as it was initiated by YOUR party? 'Cause from my own point of view, you're really no better than the people you claim to oppose.

And seeings how this thread is in the policital section: I'll never understand why the Republican Party wants to go down in history as the Party of War and Torture.

But then again... these policies ARE rather popular among a certain base in this country. Particularly Christians.

The thing I find most disturbing about these photos is that most of our troops involved were men and so many of the prisoners are nude and in homosexual situations. I guess don't ask don't tell went over well with our military.

Nudity is deeply offensive to muslims.

As is being buried with a hog. Keeps them out of Paradise.

And male US soldiers posing a bunch of naked men on top each other gives the Muslim community as well as Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Freddie Phelps a basis to spew their crap about America being a nation of homosexuals.

I can think of dozens of humiliating treatments and abusive things, many involving pigs, and they'd never need to be stripped to do it. This whole thing just reminds me of Ned Beatty in Deliverance. Squeal like a pig boy!!

Might be a funny movie scene, but not the image of US troops I want the world seeing.

All them reservists, they are not professional soldiers. The photos you and I see are not what the proffessionals did, it is what the amatures did, Prob. to redirect your attention from what the real story is. Likewise the men you see in the photos are prob. not any sort of higher level operatives. Just guys off the streets who get took up in whatever net is cast.


A lot of todays kids in the Armed Forces are just like the kids you see on the streets today....a bunch of dipshits who have not a clue about what it means to be a Warrior. Who come back all shell shocked and such. They aint seen shit compared to my brothers in Wars of the past.

I feel sorry for the thumbs up girl who suffered the brunt of the wrath of the crybaby media, and lilly livered crybaby mofos that don't deserve the freedom that they enjoy.


BTW.....The dude that created the MIA/POW flag has passed on, I think he was 88. Drew it in 1970 while in Vietnam.

Saddam Hussein used to put a fellow in a room that had these spouts sticking out of the ceiling, and at a random rate and out of random spouts, a drop of acid would drip out on you. This was after they kicked your door in and took you in the night and pulled your toenails off and beat you and then tossed you in this room for a few days.


All because someone snitched you out for reading your Bible, or thinking against whatever the Government thought. A family member, a neighbor, anyone that they could get to roll on another person. The whole country would live in fear and distrust.

This just scratches the surface of what was going on over there.

But a raghead is like a chimpanzee....all they understand is a baseball bat to the head. You cannot give an Arab an inch, for they will take ten miles. All they understand is if they do not behave they get physically hurt. But what do you expect out of a group of people who just crap right where they squat and dont wipe their nasty asses.

Its too hot in the desert and it makes them cranky. Kill them all and take their oil....leave them the camels and the date trees. They will do just fine, as they have for millenia.

War is largely psycholigical. The enemy has been given ammunition by these homosexual poses. When I see images of 9/11, the beheadings, or a bombing I think this is an enemy that will resort to anything and is highly dangerous.

If I saw images of Muslims stripping American men naked and forcing them into homosexual acts, I would only feel rage and an intense desire for merciless and destructive revenge.

I deleted my comment.......I let my anger get the best of me........

mikecc wrote:

Saddam Hussein used to put a fellow in a room that had these spouts sticking out of the ceiling, and at a random rate and out of random spouts, a drop of acid would drip out on you. This was after they kicked your door in and took you in the night and pulled your toenails off and beat you and then tossed you in this room for a few days.


All because someone snitched you out for reading your Bible

800,000 Christians protected under Saddam, now killed under Bush

"Before the US-led invasion of March 2003, there were estimated to be about 800,000 Christians in Iraq, about three per cent of the otherwise largely Muslim population, living mainly in urban centres such as Baghdad." ...

Although there were some attacks on churches in the immediate aftermath of the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, Iraq's Christians were not especially targeted while rival Sunni and Shiite Muslim factions went to war. "

http://www.kavkazcenter.com/eng/content/2007/06/04/8394.shtml

-

At Least Saddam Protected the Rights of Religious Minorities

Iraqi legislators have revoked a paragraph in the constitution that gave a set of seats for Iraqi minorities in provincial councils.

The reason they cited was that there was no "authentic count" of the number of these minorities in the country.

But this is a baseless excuse and pretext to violate the rights of Iraqi Christians, Shebeks, Sabeans and Yazidis. There must have been other reasons which prompted the parliament to take a decision that has alienated an important and crucial component of the Iraqi society.

Iraqi minorities thought they would be treated much better than under former leader Saddam Hussein, whose regime the U.S. toppled in 2003.

But they now find themselves in far worse conditions. At least Saddam Hussein respected their religious rights and their way of worship. His regime is credited with the building of scores of churches and places of worship for all Iraqi minorities.


http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/101750/at_least_saddam_protected_the_rights_of_religious_minorities/

somebody only believes what he wants to. DSFI!

Is that the turnip truck you fell off of driving away in your avatar?

supermom75 wrote:

I deleted my comment.......I let my anger get the best of me........

Anger over what?

You know bighead I really don't give a damn if you think I am dense or not. You really don't concern me too much. I think if you look back at the time and mood of the country after the 911 event took place, none of the events that have taken place should really come as much as a surprise. At the time, people were crying for blood and now those same people are crying foul because it fits their particular agenda. The real act of stupidity is that the morons that were involved in the torture took photos of it.

So you can sit and act superior all you want. The simple fact of the matter is people always have and will continue to do bad things to each other no matter how civilized and sophisticated we think we are.

For some odd reason bighead, I have a hunch you are a big fan of Keith Olberman.

supermom75 wrote:

I deleted my comment.......I let my anger get the best of me........

If your comment is about my last post before yours, I'll clarify. I see 9/11, beheadings, and random bombings as something to be wary of, distressing in many ways, and while it makes me angry, I find it a serious concern that it could happen again. There are real reasons to worry about public safety.

If I saw Muslims posing nude American men in homosexual poses it would not give me any serious worry. It would not make me afraid. It would just piss me off. See the difference? The nude posing just creates rage, no real fear. It was just amusement for a bunch of soldiers and humiliation is the worst interrogation tactic because it creates an intense desire for revenge.

If you make someone watch while you cut their friends heads off, you are going to have alot better chance of getting info out of them than making them roll around naked with each other. All that's good for is to outrage them and all their friends and countrymen.

LukeTHr wrote:

You know bighead I really don't give a damn if you think I am dense or not. You really don't concern me too much.

Don't know why I would concern you. I'm nobody. Never claimed to BE anybody.

Quote :

I think if you look back at the time and mood of the country after the 911 event took place, none of the events that have taken place should really come as much as a surprise.

True enough. Especially when you factor in the incompetent boobs who command and serve in our military.

Quote :

At the time, people were crying for blood and now those same people are crying foul because it fits their particular agenda.

No doubt there's some overlap... but are you sure that the people railing against torture are THE SAME people who were crying for blood? 'Cause I remember that there WAS some real opposition to our invation of Iraq (I just voted one of those opponents into the Oval Office). It turns out that most of their points were correct (that Iraq had little or nothing to do with Al Qeada, that thousands of our people would die, that Iraq would become "a quagmire", etc. etc.). I imagine that lots of these same people are now pissed about this unnecessary and counterproductive torture.

So do you reckon that fear-based political will after a terrorist attack justifies the invasion of a foreign country that was NEVER a threat to us, and the SYSTEMATIC torture of people who had NOTHING to do with said terrorist attack?

Quote :

The real act of ostupitdity eis that the morons that were involved in the torture took photos of it.

So it'd all be fine so long as this info wasn't made public?

I know that there are HUNDREDS more photos- many worse than these. Personally, I hope they ALL come out. 'Cause I want the American people to see what's been done in their name. I want them to understand that our elected leaders are little different from the Crapistan dictators that we trick dumb kids into fighting.

Quote :

So you can/ sit and act superior all you want. The simple fact of the matter is people always have and will continue to do bad things to each other no matter how civilized and sophisticated we think we are.

Damn right I'm superior to a talk-radio parrot like yourself. But that ain't sayin' much.

So what's your point? That torture is fine and dandy with you... so long as it involves brown people halfway around the world?

I don't expect a guy like you to understand this... but this sort of torture has done only HARM to our country. Imagine if your brother was tortured... don't you reckon you'd get revenge on the bastards who did it? So just how many new terrorists have we created? And gained WHAT? How do you reckon this will affect the way our own soldiers are treated when they're captured?

Remember during the first gulf war when hundreds of Iraqi soldiers surrendered without a fight because the knew they'd be treated decently by Americans? The same happened NUMEROUS times in WWII (though NOBODY surrendered to the Russians- they fought to the DEATH. Care to guess why?). And in Vietnam. Probably other wars. Well... now that it's been established that we Americans will torture our prisoners and make them fuck each other- do you reckon enemy soldiers will surrender without a fight? Or will thousands more of our people in the next conflict (and there WILL be a 'next') be killed as an indirect result of this stupidity?

Quote :

For some odd reason bighead, I have a hunch you are a big fan of Keith Olberman.

Haven't watched him in months (been kinda busy)... but I have seen him half a dozen times or so. He makes some good points... but kinda one-sided.

Quote :

True enough. Especially when you factor in the incompetent boobs who command and serve in our military.

You paint with a pretty broad brush there bighead. I hope for your sake that no one finds out who you are for real and come share with you how they feel about our men and women in service. So tell me, have you always been a flag-burner or is this something recent??

Quote :

I just voted one of those opponents into the Oval Office

That comes as no great surprise. you must be pretty disappointed now the obama has reversed his plan to release more photos. If he does release more it will only be playing politics in an effort to set up the next election cycle to the dems advantage.

Quote :

I want them to understand that our elected leaders are little different from the Crapistan dictators that we trick dumb kids into fighting.

would that be ALL elected officials or just those with views different from yours? Would that include your savior, the great and mighty obama??

Quote :

I don't expect a guy like you to understand this... but this sort of torture has done only HARM to our country. Imagine if your brother was tortured... don't you reckon you'd get revenge on the bastards who did it? So just how many new terrorists have we created? And gained WHAT? How do you reckon this will affect the way our own soldiers are treated when they're captured?

I understand a whole lot more than you think I do. I am pretty sure that no matter what we as a nation do, there will always be a fanatical muslim fringe that will hate us and will continue to try to attack us. Religion has a funny way of twisting peoples minds and making them think that only their religion is the right one and that they are justified in acts of violence in the name of their god.

Quote :

Damn right I'm superior to a talk-radio parrot like yourself. But that ain't sayin' much.

Sorry to disappoint you , but I am not a big listener of talk radio. However your calling me that IS typical of far-left elitists such as yourself. Reminds me of a little kid on the playground that resorts to name calling thinking it will win the argument for them. In reality, it just shows your true inferiority.

Quote :

Remember during the first gulf war when hundreds of Iraqi soldiers surrendered without a fight because the knew they'd be treated decently by Americans? The same happened NUMEROUS times in WWII (though NOBODY surrendered to the Russians- they fought to the DEATH. Care to guess why?). And in Vietnam. Probably other wars. Well... now that it's been established that we Americans will torture our prisoners and make them fuck each other- do you reckon enemy soldiers will surrender without a fight? Or will thousands more of our people in the next conflict (and there WILL be a 'next') be killed as an indirect result of this stupidity?

Little history lesson for you... the reason the Germans fought the Russians so hard is they knew the Russians were going to do to them exactly what German soldiers had done to Russian civilians to begin with by raping, murdering and enslaving Russians. I think the democratic political machine will continue to push this torture issue and their flock will follow like sheep. However , it does seem to coming back to bite them in the ass now as is evident by the way Pelosi is trying to wiggle her way out of the noose she has put herself in.

Quote :

So what's your point? That torture is fine and dandy with you... so long as it involves brown people halfway around the world?

So whats my point?? People always have and will continue to do bad things to each other, no matter how mentally superior or "civilized" society thinks we are. Don't be so surprised when it happens. You're just as guilty as the people you accuse

I agree with some of both sides. Enemies treat each other badly all the time. I actually think Muslims would understand beatings and even torture. But this nude-gay posing thing was a huge mistake. It didn't intimidate, it just served to infuriate.

Other than that I would say war is hell and all is fair, but there is one problem. Our nations leaders are the ones that always spoke against torture and claimed that America does "not" do this. That's why the other guys are evil and we're not is what they'd say. And had this not been exposed I think both Bush and Obama would still be claiming the USA doesn't torture prisoners.

But hey, it's been many moons since most of our politicians told the truth.

The 25 lines edited out of the court papers contained details of how Mr Mohamed’s genitals were sliced with a scalpel and other torture methods so extreme that waterboarding, the controversial technique of simulated drowning, “is very far down the list of things they did,” the official said....

....Mohamed remains at Guantanamo Bay and “is currently on hunger strike.” “All terror charges against him were dropped last year,” the Telegraph reported.


http://thinkprogress.org/2009/02/09/mohamed-torture-uk-us/

bet he's a terrorist now.

Ratzilla wrote:

supermom75 wrote:

I deleted my comment.......I let my anger get the best of me........

Anger over what?

A personal story about a very good man/soldier who was killed in Iraq, (while helping a family change their flat tire) and the details of what happened to him in the hands of the Iraqi's who he was trying to help......I posted about it, then decided to delete it because it's still so devastating to his family and friends, even though it's been about 6 years.............I feel the treatment of those men and the pictures taken are justified!!!!

Without hearing the Story I imagine its the same as 4295 other Stories from Iraq.........

Supermom, I am sorry to hear about your story. I think it goes well to illustrate that no good deed goes unpunished. Are there good people in Iraq? I think there probably are. Are there bad people there too. Obviously so.

The biggest problem with the type of war we are fighting both there in Iraq and in Afghanistan and in the Arab world in general is that we are battling religious ideologies. We should have learned from Vietnam, and from Russias experience in Afghanistan, it is a war we are not likely to win. You can't win over religious zealots in a conventional type of war. We are just going to have to be ever vigilant and do what we can do deter and prevent attacks like 911 and keep them to a minimum as best we can. And to do that, sometimes some very distasteful methods are going to have to be employed to get the required information. At times , some innocent people will probably be caught up in that process and we either need to accept that fact or we have to expect that events along the lines of 911 will be more numerous and just as deadly. There has been war in the middle east since the dawn of time. Look at the historical record, it has always been and will probably contiue to be that way for generations to come. The United States has only really become a player there since the discovery of oil there and with our involvement in the development of that industry there, it has made us a target for the hardline religious groups that see anyone not under their branch of religion as an infidel. They won't get along with anyone outside their religion.

supermom75 wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

supermom75 wrote:

I deleted my comment.......I let my anger get the best of me........

Anger over what?

A personal story about a very good man/soldier who was killed in Iraq, (while helping a family change their flat tire) and the details of what happened to him in the hands of the Iraqi's who he was trying to help......I posted about it, then decided to delete it because it's still so devastating to his family and friends, even though it's been about 6 years.............I feel the treatment of those men and the pictures taken are justified!!!!

There is alot of the same hatred for Americans that was seen in Vietnam. A good friend of mine was in Vietnam and told of an old woman that was walking down the middle of the road. When the convoy he was in began to slow down the officer in charge gave the order to run her down because he suspected an ambush. Turned out the old lady was just an old lady. So was it justified to run down an old woman because they suspected an ambush?

Not everyone who is harmed in a war deserves it. And it works for both sides. Those who only mean to help sometimes die, and those who only wish to be left alone die. If killing and torture by either the liberator, or the liberated is taking place it is a sign to me that it's not a question of what treatment is justified. It tells me that our being there probably isn't justified.

supermom75 wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

supermom75 wrote:

I deleted my comment.......I let my anger get the best of me........

Anger over what?

A personal story about a very good man/soldier who was killed in Iraq, (while helping a family change their flat tire) and the details of what happened to him in the hands of the Iraqi's who he was trying to help......I posted about it, then decided to delete it because it's still so devastating to his family and friends, even though it's been about 6 years.............I feel the treatment of those men and the pictures taken are justified!!!!

Good gawd... and THIS is why we humans will NEVER amount to anything more than a bunch of war-hungry primates.

You DO realize that that verygood man-soldier had no business invading Iraq in the first place. Don't care how nice a guy he was- he signed up to be a hired thug for the government. He got what he deserved.

You are also aware that the people in these pictures are innocent in LOTS of cases. You ARE aware of this, right? So you reckon that innocent bystanders deserve to be tortured because some hired thug got himself killed during an illegal, immoral, and completely pointless invasion/occupation of a country that never threatened us?

Really, I'm damn near at a loss for words here.

Now, this isn't directed solely at you, supermom- or anybody else here. It's just a general observation. But over the past 8 years, I think I've really come to understand how otherwise good people have, throughout history, sanctioned the most brutal, disgusting, and cruel treatment of other humans. It's fueled by a mix of arrogance, stupidity, fear, tribalism/ethnocentrism, and the overriding belief that "WE" (whomever the 'we' in question might be) are inherently better people than "them".

All this can be pretty well summed up by our American concept of "patriotism".

Bighead wrote:

the overriding belief that "I" (whomever the 'I' in question might be) am inherently better people than "you".

LOL@Bighead

LukeTHr wrote:

The biggest problem with the type of war we are fighting both there in Iraq and in Afghanistan and in the Arab world in general is that we are battling religious ideologies.

-
Absolute HOGWASH!!!! We are in those countries to control energy reserves, primarily natural gas and oil. you've been sold a bill of shit about the false religious war and you bought it hook line and sinker. Yeah. they hate us for our freedoms. i am so glad i do not live my life so in fear of what might be that i would slice a mans tesicles and penis just to find out what he might know about what might happen to me somewhere in the crazy future. where do you shameless friggin people come from?

"Khadr, now 22, is the youngest inmate and, as a Canadian citizen, the only Westerner still held at Gitmo. He is accused of receiving one-on-one training from al Qaeda and was allegedly caught on a surveillance video making and planting roadside bombs where U.S. troops traveled -- video the Pentagon will not release."

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/02/09/gitmo.omar.khadr/index.html
-

Ex-Bush Official: Many At Gitmo Innocent
Ret. Colonel Says U.S. Forces Swept Up Suspects Without Regard To Whether They Were Non-Combatants
-

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/19/terror/main4877395.shtml

-Wilkerson, a retired Army colonel, said vetting on the battlefield during the early stages of U.S. military operations in Afghanistan was incompetent with no meaningful attempt to discriminate "who we were transporting to Cuba for detention and interrogation."
-
Wilkerson told the AP in a telephone interview that many detainees "clearly had no connection to al Qaeda and the Taliban and were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Pakistanis turned many over for $5,000 a head."

WOWZERS! your own people. Tellin' it like it is. And yet you choose to ignore because of fear. Cowards all!
-
Day 1: America's prison for terrorists often held the wrong men
-
The militants crept up behind Mohammed Akhtiar as he squatted at the spigot to wash his hands before evening prayers at the Guantanamo Bay detention camp.

They shouted "Allahu Akbar" — God is great — as one of them hefted a metal mop squeezer into the air, slammed it into Akhtiar's head and sent thick streams of blood running down his face.

Akhtiar was among the more than 770 terrorism suspects imprisoned at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. They are the men the Bush administration described as "the worst of the worst."

But Akhtiar was no terrorist. American troops had dragged him out of his Afghanistan home in 2003 and held him in Guantanamo for three years in the belief that he was an insurgent involved in rocket attacks on U.S. forces. The Islamic radicals in Guantanamo's Camp Four who hissed "infidel" and spat at Akhtiar, however, knew something his captors didn't: The U.S. government had the wrong guy.

"He was not an enemy of the government, he was a friend of the government," a senior Afghan intelligence officer told McClatchy. Akhtiar was imprisoned at Guantanamo on the basis of false information that local anti-government insurgents fed to U.S. troops, he said.

An eight-month McClatchy investigation in 11 countries on three continents has found that Akhtiar was one of dozens of men — and, according to several officials, perhaps hundreds — whom the U.S. has wrongfully imprisoned in Afghanistan, Cuba and elsewhere on the basis of flimsy or fabricated evidence, old personal scores or bounty payments.

McClatchy interviewed 66 released detainees, more than a dozen local officials — primarily in Afghanistan — and U.S. officials with intimate knowledge of the detention program. The investigation also reviewed thousands of pages of U.S. military tribunal documents and other records.

This unprecedented compilation shows that most of the 66 were low-level Taliban grunts, innocent Afghan villagers or ordinary criminals. At least seven had been working for the U.S.-backed Afghan government and had no ties to militants, according to Afghan local officials. In effect, many of the detainees posed no danger to the United States or its allies.

7 of the "criminals" were working for us...

which is it? mook or moolie? the extreme disconnect posessed by you to ignore the similiarities between Saddams "alleged rape rooms" and bush's penis scalping palaces is abhorrent and shamefull.
-
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/detainees/story/38773.html

especially when faced with the truth...

-Pentagon lied that Iraqi forces stood at Saudi border

Before launching the Gulf War, Bush Sr. claimed that an Iraqi juggernaut was threatening to roll into Saudi Arabia. Citing top-secret satellite images, Pentagon officials estimated in mid–September that up to 250,000 Iraqi troops and 1,500 tanks stood on the border, threatening the key US oil supplier.

The St. Petersburg Times acquired two commercial Soviet satellite images of the same area, taken at the same time, and found no Iraqi troops were visible near the Saudi border — just empty desert.

After the war, Gen. Colin Powell admitted that there had been no massive build up. A US senior commander told Newsday after the war, "There was a great disinformation campaign surrounding this war."
-
http://www.whodies.com/lies_gulf_war.html
-
not his first lie or last i guess..

-
The Mother of All Clients
On August 2, 1990, Iraqi troops led by dictator Saddam Hussein invaded the oil-producing nation of Kuwait. Like Noriega in Panama, Hussein had been a US ally for nearly a decade. From 1980 to 1988, he had killed about 150,000 Iranians, in addition to at least 13,000 of his own citizens. Despite complaints from international human rights group, however, the Reagan and Bush administrations had treated Hussein as a valuable ally in the US confrontation with Iran. As late as July 25 - a week before the invasion of Kuwait - US Ambassador April Glaspie commiserated with Hussein over a "cheap and unjust" profile by ABC's Diane Sawyer, and wished for an "appearance in the media, even for five minutes," by Hussein that "would help explain Iraq to the American people."

http://www.prwatch.org/books/tsigfy10.html
-
and thats only part of it...
-
personally. as a veteran. im f'in ashamed of you.
-
f'in WOW!!!!!

This country needs less people like you, not more. fearmongers. deal with your neurosis' in private.

-
shameless f'ers

Rog I think if you would read what I stated earlier, you would see that I never claimed any specific reason of why we are there, only that our development of the oil resources in the middle east has brought us into conflicts that have been going on in the middle east for centuries. I think I am correct in stating that a majority of the wars there have been based heavily on religious beliefs over the years.

I find it pretty sad that you would think I don't have a right to speak. It would seem that only enlightened folks such as yourself and bighead know anything about everything here.
Anyone that has a viewpoint that differs from yours is obviously wrong and therefore should not be allowed to speak.

Heil Hitler , Sieg heil, seig heil, sieg heil........

What really amazes me is that both of you think that we as a nation have all these high ideals and that we as a nation have never done or will never do any wrong. Get real here. I know we ain't no angels, so I am really not shocked or surprised by ANYTHING that happens anymore. Now if you are so disgusted by all our country has done, then the best way to cleanse yourself of the sins of your nation is stop driving and unplug from the grid because your use of oil and electricity make you just as guilty as the rest of us. Blood is on your hands too.

Excerpt:
The single most pertinent question that Dick Cheney is never asked -- at least not by the admiring interviewers he has encountered so far
-- is whether he, Rumsfeld and Bush used torture to justify the illegal invasion of Iraq. As he tours television studios, radio stations and
conservative think tanks, the former vice-president hopes to persuade America that only waterboarding kept us safe for seven years.

Yet evidence is mounting that under Cheney’s direction, "enhanced interrogation" was not used only to prevent imminent acts of terror
or collect actionable intelligence -- the aims that he constantly emphasizes -- but to invent evidence that would link al-Qaida with Saddam
and connect the late Iraqi dictator to the 9/11 attacks.

In one report after another, from journalists, former administration officials and Senate investigators, the same theme continues to emerge:
Whenever a prisoner believed to possess any knowledge of al-Qaida’s operations or Iraqi intelligence came into American custody,
CIA interrogators felt intense pressure from the Bush White House to produce evidence of an Iraq-Qaida relationship (which contradicted
everything that U.S. intelligence and other experts knew about the enmity between Saddam’s Baath Party and Osama bin Laden’s jihadists).
Indeed, the futile quest for proof of that connection is the common thread running through the gruesome stories of torture from Gitmo to
Egyptian prisons to the CIA's black sites in Thailand and elsewhere.
....
-(which contradicted everything that U.S. intelligence and other experts knew about the enmity between Saddam’s Baath Party and Osama bin Laden’s jihadists)

http://www.salon.com/opinion/conason/2009/05/14/cheney/
-
blaze up elsewhere wastoids...

LukeTHr wrote:

that you would think I don't have a right to speak..

What really amazes me is that both of you think that we as a nation have all these high ideals and that we as a nation have never done or will never do any wrong. Get real here.

Blood is on your hands too.

-
first off i tell no one not to speak. i think your a f' in idiot and people like you got my service buddies killed in horrific ways. thanks.

second. the whole post is about the rotten stuff we've been doing as a nation. WTF? is this the most lucid thought you can produce?
-
yes it is. but i served. like pilate i can wash my hands clean of the blood of fools.

Rog, I think Luke was referring more to the type of mindset US troops are dealing with in these conflicts. He's pretty conservative but he knows territory and resources come into play in this. The corporate bailouts have taught anyone who didn't realize it before that profits for an elite few are what rules political decisions. Besides that Bushy Junior wanted to show daddy Bush what a stud man he was by avenging his daddys embarrassing fuckup.

As far as Afghanistan goes, I supported chasing Osama there. Iraq was a power and profit play 100% and Saddam had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. But I do think it was right to strike at Osama's boys in Afghanistan after they claimed responsibility. Personally I think we should have threatened to invade Saudi Arabia if they didn't turn over all the Saudis involved in 9/11, but as I say, elitist money rules so it didn't happen.

I've had the opinion for some time now that all wars should be fought only by the leaders who start them in a gladiator type setting. There would be very few wars.

Ratzilla wrote:

Rog, I think Luke was...

nopers. he's just luke.

the solution is for people who think that way to move to third rate military juntas and get their jollies. not to turn MY country into a third rate military junta. we are supposed to want to be better than all that.

Rog wrote:

LukeTHr wrote:

that you would think I don't have a right to speak..

What really amazes me is that both of you think that we as a nation have all these high ideals and that we as a nation have never done or will never do any wrong. Get real here.

Blood is on your hands too.

-
first off i tell no one not to speak. i think your a f' in idiot and people like you got my service buddies killed in horrific ways. thanks.

second. the whole post is about the rotten stuff we've been doing as a nation. WTF? is this the most lucid thought you can produce?
-
yes it is. but i served. like pilate i can wash my hands clean of the blood of fools.

I think your are an elitist, pompous , self righteous jackass. I think you spend too much time watching that windbag Olberman and nazi Moddow. You blame soldiers getting killed on me?? I didn't send them there, OUR( read that as yours and mine) elected officials voted to send them. Now the trick is to get them out with as few losses as possible, the problem with that is we have created a mess we can't easily clean up nor can we just walk away from it. Now if you have some real solutions to the problem, feel free to share them with us. If not, bitching and whining about the past isn't going to change the future. Either way, you have some real anger issues you best get some help for.

Rog wrote:

the solution is for people who think that way to move to third rate military juntas and get their jollies. not to turn MY country into a third rate military junta. we are supposed to want to be better than all that.

YOUR country??? I pay taxes and vote here too. And I am not badmouthing the men and women in the armed services like you are ya traitor.

LukeTHr wrote:

Rog wrote:

the solution is for people who think that way to move to third rate military juntas and get their jollies. not to turn MY country into a third rate military junta. we are supposed to want to be better than all that.

YOUR country??? I pay taxes and vote here too. And I am not badmouthing the men and women in the armed services like you are ya traitor.

Whoa- hold on there buddy. I've never seen Rog bad-mouth our country's hired-thugs-in-uniform. I have... but I don't recall him doing it.


by the way:



WTF? I just got done making what is ARGUABLY the most inflammatory comment I've ever posted. One that I'm having second thoughts about... and Rog is getting all the attention?!?!

sorry to have disappointed you there bighead. I guess if you are being inflammatory just to pick a fight, your life must be pretty boring. Rog got my attention because he likes to send nasty little pm's and I figure if someone has something to say about an issue then keep it on subject. When a person has to resort to personal attacks in the shadows, it just proves to me how weak their position is and how small minded they are.

and is you are having second thoughts about your comment after you post them, perhaps a bit of thought before you post them would be in order. If you are going to say something, be man enough to stand behind it or don't say it.

As far as this thread goes, I think it has reached a point where it is time to back off and walk away from it. No good is going to be coming out of it. It's just time to walk away.

Rog, I gotta say, if it's worth saying, it's worth saying in open forum so we can all judge. I kinda fall somewhere between your opinions and Luke's. I'm no pacifist, but I'm not a war monger. I happen to know Luke realizes problems nowdays are far more complex than just killing Muslims will fix. And I would hope you realize that an attack like 9/11 must be answered.

I say Iraq was wrong all the way. A power/money/territory/revenge war is what I see. And I know Bin Laden and the Taliban were once in our politicians favor, but we cannot ignore 9/11.

Had the decisions been mine to make Iraq would not have happened and would not need to. But I'd have hit without mercy wherever I had reason to believe the men behind 9/11 were hiding and there'd be no reason to debate torture because I wouldn't take prisoners.

How soon we forget. All of the shit anti-tourture people bitch about WILL continue to happen all around the world by all sorts. It will only be buried deeper. If you really despise it that much, pull the trigger now...

Not sure what you're getting at, Nitro. Are you saying that we should just shut up and let this happen without criticism?