Israel

About damn good time to see them open up a can of whoop-ass. I hope Netanyahu takes it in February. "we do not have a viable partner with whom to negotiate peace." - Benjamin Netanyahu

Yeah, but we got their backs, atleast until obama takes over.

mikecc wrote:

Yeah, but we got their backs, atleast until obama takes over.

We have the Israelis back for the time being and have for quite a few years, I agree. George Bush (voted for him twice) cost us approx. 4000 young lives to establish a democracy in a cauldron of Hell. Still not sure if Iraq was the right thing to do, but to lessen support for Israel in light of that is unfathomable to me.

establish a democracy in a cauldron of Hell? Where did this happen?

Our support of Israel is the number one reason 9/11 happened. We stood behind the theft of Arab land to create Israel and then continued to give them aid as they stole more. I have little use for anyone in that region, but to aid Israel all these years would be like giving Alabama to the Blacks after the Civil War, helping arm them to kill Southern whites and expecting no one would complain.

Yep, I say we remove ourselves from the situation and let "god" sort it out.

Obama has made comments in the past that imply that he's no fan of American-subsidized Zionism... but then he flip/flopped on that during the election (and I reckon it was necessary- he'd have been rendered unelectable otherwise).

Personally, I don't have anything directly against Isreal. The jews seem like a smart and industrious bunch... and I'd certainly rather hang around with them than your average Muslim. But I don't support sending them billions of our tax dollars and fighting wars on their behalf.

mikecc wrote:

establish a democracy in a cauldron of Hell? Where did this happen?

What do you mean?

Bighead wrote:

Yep, I say we remove ourselves from the situation and let "god" sort it out.

Obama has made comments in the past that imply that he's no fan of American-subsidized Zionism... but then he flip/flopped on that during the election (and I reckon it was necessary- he'd have been rendered unelectable otherwise).

Personally, I don't have anything directly against Isreal. The jews seem like a smart and industrious bunch... and I'd certainly rather hang around with them than your average Muslim. But I don't support sending them billions of our tax dollars and fighting wars on their behalf.

Not sure what you mean by fighting wars on their behalf.

Yep, I say we remove ourselves from the situation and let "god" sort it out.

Yep, I say Kiil 'em all, and let God sort them out

SciFi wrote:

Bighead wrote:

But I don't support sending them billions of our tax dollars and fighting wars on their behalf.

Not sure what you mean by fighting wars on their behalf.

During Desert Storm our government asked Israel not to retaliate for the scud attacks. We fought the war for them. We've been providing supplies, and military support for decades and overlooked the fact that they have a substantial nuclear arsenal yet they also have a history of doing things that would be called war crimes if Muslims did it.

Like Bighead, I find them industrious and more tolerable than their Muslim brothers, but I don't like taking sides in their conflict. Most of the Israelis and Arabs are descended from the same roots, so we are really outsiders taking sides in a centuries long family fued.

Its only the white Israelis that we fight for.

mikecc wrote:

Its only the white Israelis that we fight for.

You mean like those lily white New Yorkers whose parents were born in Europe yet they claim Goatopia is home?

Ratzilla wrote:

SciFi wrote:

Bighead wrote:

But I don't support sending them billions of our tax dollars and fighting wars on their behalf.

Not sure what you mean by fighting wars on their behalf.

During Desert Storm our government asked Israel not to retaliate for the scud attacks. We fought the war for them. We've been providing supplies, and military support for decades and overlooked the fact that they have a substantial nuclear arsenal yet they also have a history of doing things that would be called war crimes if Muslims did it.

Like Bighead, I find them industrious and more tolerable than their Muslim brothers, but I don't like taking sides in their conflict. Most of the Israelis and Arabs are descended from the same roots, so we are really outsiders taking sides in a centuries long family fued.

Believe me, Israel wanted to fight in that war. I personally would have loved to have seen Israel get in there and kick some ass. Better that they didn't, though. We would not have had the cooperation of the Arab states during that time. Now look, when the Jewish State was born after WW2 (if not after the Balfour Declaration of 1917), each state on Her borders and beyond conspired to wipe Israel off the map. They failed, and in subsequent wars Israel gained territory, which is now a big bargaining chip . . . for the Arabs. Israel had Her land deeded by law, and She has fought fiercely, and still does against Her enemies. Initially, the Arab forces told those there that they should move while the Arab forces wipe the Israelis out, and then they can reoccupy their abodes. Well, guess what? Israel kicked all of their asses. The result? Palestinian "refugee camps." Israel.

This can of worms has no bottom....WAIT!!! There is no God....Never mind. Just something I learned on here yesterday.

Not sure from whence your support for Isreal stems, Scifi... unless you propose that 'might makes right'. That would be very Christian of you.

Personally, I don't care a whole lot for either side of the conflict... and would be hard-pressed to build a case for either being 'right'.

I've got no dog in that fight... and I'd rather not be drug into it. Isreal owes 'her' continued survival to the U.S. What do we get in return other than a billion pissed off Muslims?

alg8tr wrote:

This can of worms has no bottom....WAIT!!! There is no God....Never mind. Just something I learned on here yesterday.

If there existed a being as foul and pervasive as the christian version of 'god', then I reckon I would've noticed him by now.

mikecc wrote:

Yep, I say we remove ourselves from the situation and let "god" sort it out.

Yep, I say Kiil 'em all, and let God sort them out

YUP!

Bighead wrote:

What do we get in return other than a billion pissed off Muslims?

A Democracy, in addition to Israel, in a volatile area of the world where we aren't wanted. Got something against the 3rd-Crusade, Bighead? Maybe we got it right this time, although England certainly did not on the first two. It doesn't matter what we do, as far as supporting Israel, that support is locked in stone as far as I'm concerned.

SciFi wrote:

Bighead wrote:

What do we get in return other than a billion pissed off Muslims?

A Democracy, in addition to Israel, in a volatile area of the world where we aren't wanted. Got something against the 3rd-Crusade, Bighead? Maybe we got it right this time, although England certainly did not on the first two. It doesn't matter what we do, as far as supporting Israel, that support is locked in stone as far as I'm concerned.

Pit his billion pissed off Muslims against a billion pissed off Walmart shoppers. Who wins?

SciFi wrote:

Bighead wrote:

What do we get in return other than a billion pissed off Muslims?

A Democracy, in addition to Israel, in a volatile area of the world where we aren't wanted. Got something against the 3rd-Crusade, Bighead? Maybe we got it right this time, although England certainly did not on the first two. It doesn't matter what we do, as far as supporting Israel, that support is locked in stone as far as I'm concerned.

Sorry to say you are probably right that it's locked in stone because of Congress, and religion. There are still many millions of Christians who believe the propaganda created by Jews that say anyone who turns their back on Israel will earn the wrath of God. And there are Republicans who just love war.

So toss in the fact that of the 43, yes "43" Jewish reps in the House and Senate 38 are Democrats and 2 are independents with Jewish sympathies. So anytime a vote to support Israel comes up it's almost sure to pass, and anytime a Republican like Bush wants to attack any arab nation for any reason there's going to be at least 38 Democrats who will vote pro-war as long as Muslims will be killed.

Oh and that democracy in the Middle East besides Israel you speak of, Iraq I assume you mean, will only remain a democracy if we keep troops there "FOREVER". Within a year or less of our pullout there would be a powerplay and democracy would not win.

SciFi wrote:

Israel had Her land deeded by law.

But not by the laws of those it was taken from. So I assume that if Britain or the UN decided that the US must give your home and all of Kansas back to whoever laid claim to it 2000 years ago you would happily pack up and leave?

If you recall history the land of Israel was not Hebrew land in the beginning anyway. The Caanites were there first, and said Caanites are the ancestors of most modern Palestinians. Most modern Jews are descended from Europeans and Russians who converted to the Hebrew religion. The Hebrews were invaders of Caanan centuries ago, and now modern Jews who the majority of have only religious ties to the land have invaded again. Only this time the Christian nations who also worship the land due to biblical ties have decided to back them up.

Here's a novel idea (but not new) since you like democracy in the Middle East. A completely democratic Israel with full rights to live and work anywhere for anyone of any religion or ethnic heritage. I'm sure the Jews would just love the idea of sharing the land with those they think of as inferior. All due respects, but we have no business whatsoever in trying to be a third party in an unsolvable dispute.

You also mentioned a 3rd Crusade. I have no desire to lower our modern country to the mentality of goat nations. The days of persecuting heretics are supposed to be over so a new religious crusade is just piling stupidity upon stupidity.

Ratzilla wrote:

Here's a novel idea (but not new) since you like democracy in the Middle East. A completely democratic Israel with full rights to live and work anywhere for anyone of any religion or ethnic heritage.

That's rather difficult when many of those same people won't settle for anything less than wiping Israel off the map.

Ratzilla wrote:

SciFi wrote:

Israel had Her land deeded by law.

But not by the laws of those it was taken from. So I assume that if Britain or the UN decided that the US must give your home and all of Kansas back to whoever laid claim to it 2000 years ago you would happily pack up and leave?

If you recall history the land of Israel was not Hebrew land in the beginning anyway. The Caanites were there first, and said Caanites are the ancestors of most modern Palestinians. Most modern Jews are descended from Europeans and Russians who converted to the Hebrew religion. The Hebrews were invaders of Caanan centuries ago, and now modern Jews who the majority of have only religious ties to the land have invaded again. Only this time the Christian nations who also worship the land due to biblical ties have decided to back them up.

Here's a novel idea (but not new) since you like democracy in the Middle East. A completely democratic Israel with full rights to live and work anywhere for anyone of any religion or ethnic heritage. I'm sure the Jews would just love the idea of sharing the land with those they think of as inferior. All due respects, but we have no business whatsoever in trying to be a third party in an unsolvable dispute.

You also mentioned a 3rd Crusade. I have no desire to lower our modern country to the mentality of goat nations. The days of persecuting heretics are supposed to be over so a new religious crusade is just piling stupidity upon stupidity.

By the way, a very interesting post.

SciFi wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

Here's a novel idea (but not new) since you like democracy in the Middle East. A completely democratic Israel with full rights to live and work anywhere for anyone of any religion or ethnic heritage.

That's rather difficult when many of those same people won't settle for anything less than wiping Israel off the map.

That's the point SciFi. There are many Jews who wish the death of all of their opponents also. There have been numerous atrocities on both sides for a long time and it's a senseless fued we have no business being involved in.

Ratzilla wrote:

There are many Jews who wish the death of all of their opponents also.

I'm sure there are some, but I think it is nowhere even remotely close to the numbers of those who wish the annihilation of Israel.

SciFi wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

There are many Jews who wish the death of all of their opponents also.

I'm sure there are some, but I think it is nowhere even remotely close to the numbers of those who wish the annihilation of Israel.

I'm sure you are right there. But Israelis are seen as invaders in Muslim land. It's a fight that's been going on since the days of Ancient Rome and Egypt. But if we look at things just from the time of the Balfour Declaration it tends to show that the arabs were not treated as intended.

The British had intended that existing cultures were not to be mistreated in regards to civil or religious rights. Yet the existing arabs were not given any say in whether the area was to be a Jewish homeland so that was basically violation #1.

After WWI and during the rise of the Nazis, Jewish settlement increased dramatically and they began buying land and prohibited Arabs from working at Jewish owned farms or businesses. The arabs complained that the British favored the Jews and were not doing anything about it.

This led to persecution of Jews by Arabs and the Hebron Massacre where many Jews were killed. The British later reduced the number of Jewish immigrants allowed in as an attempt to stop hostilities, but illegal Jewish immigration continued and after WWII the Jewish migration exploded and the Israeli state was made official. I don't excuse many of the things the Arabs have done But if I were the Arabs, I'd probably hate Israel too.

Ratzilla wrote:

SciFi wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

There are many Jews who wish the death of all of their opponents also.

I'm sure there are some, but I think it is nowhere even remotely close to the numbers of those who wish the annihilation of Israel.

I'm sure you are right there. But Israelis are seen as invaders in Muslim land. It's a fight that's been going on since the days of Ancient Rome and Egypt. But if we look at things just from the time of the Balfour Declaration it tends to show that the arabs were not treated as intended.

The British had intended that existing cultures were not to be mistreated in regards to civil or religious rights. Yet the existing arabs were not given any say in whether the area was to be a Jewish homeland so that was basically violation #1.

After WWI and during the rise of the Nazis, Jewish settlement increased dramatically and they began buying land and prohibited Arabs from working at Jewish owned farms or businesses. The arabs complained that the British favored the Jews and were not doing anything about it.

This led to persecution of Jews by Arabs and the Hebron Massacre where many Jews were killed. The British later reduced the number of Jewish immigrants allowed in as an attempt to stop hostilities, but illegal Jewish immigration continued and after WWII the Jewish migration exploded and the Israeli state was made official. I don't excuse many of the things the Arabs have done But if I were the Arabs, I'd probably hate Israel too.

Israel has allowed Palestinians to work in Israel for many years. Israel, if secure from attack, I have no doubt that they would have no problem existing with the Palestinians . . with the rights you speak of . . . . after a while. I think it's a matter of security . . . mostly.

A matter of time too. They've spent so long hating and mistrusting each other. Kind of a more angry mirror of our own nation after the Civil War. But one key to success in getting a cooperative situation is that no outsider contribute anything but peaceful measures into the process. Our military presence anywhere in the Middle East only serves to agitate.

Ratzilla wrote:

A matter of time too. They've spent so long hating and mistrusting each other. Kind of a more angry mirror of our own nation after the Civil War. But one key to success in getting a cooperative situation is that no outsider contribute anything but peaceful measures into the process. Our military presence anywhere in the Middle East only serves to agitate.

Not sure if you are referring to Israel or Iraq . . . or both. Do you think Israel could be self-sustaining without our help? I don't know. Just curious about your opinion.

I was referring partly to our presence in Iraq. I think any military aggression on our part against a Muslim nation only increases Arab/Israeli tensions.

Israel could be self sustaining if both the Jews and Arab inhabitants got rid of the chip on their shoulder. They could be self sustaining in industry, agriculture, and avoid alot of the outside aggression if they could just mend fences within. How to do that is far too complex to figure out in this post.

Ratzilla wrote:

I was referring partly to our presence in Iraq. I think any military aggression on our part against a Muslim nation only increases Arab/Israeli tensions.

Israel could be self sustaining if both the Jews and Arab inhabitants got rid of the chip on their shoulder. They could be self sustaining in industry, agriculture, and avoid alot of the outside aggression if they could just mend fences within. How to do that is far too complex to figure out in this post.

I agree, but that's an enormous "if."

The defense minister will probably be dead and buried long before the end of it. Everyone they've killed is a new martyr to rally round. Quite honestly I'm not sure how they can settle the conflict. I think most Israelis and probably most Muslims would like it to end, but there's too many in positions of power who only want their enemies dead.

I honestly belive that if they got a couple of key guys in the room, and let me go in and knock some heads around, I could Iron it out. Friggin' retards.

I'd the U.S should just stay out of this and let them kill one another. We could look at it as population control. I have not big a fan of America supporting Israel. It has caused us to piss off the Muslims. If we would mind our own business and let those turbin wearing people fight their own battles.

Got to keep them fighting as long as we can. The more they kill, the fewer we got to kill. Look at how we armed Sadam Hussain and Iraq for the Iran-Iraq war. With as many as 1.3 million casualties (high end estimate) over 8 years, I don't reckon thats a bad US investment in arms, and WMD. Esp. arming both sides

Anyways....sounds like boots on the ground soon.

Let Russia arm everyone mike. Then nobody will say it's our duty to clean up the mess it causes.

Why let the Russian Defence Contractors make all the money?

mikecc wrote:

Why let the Russian Defence Contractors make all the money?

And how many billions and how many US lives have we lost partly because we helped Saddam? Is what we end up paying worth what those contracts bring in?

Human life is expendable, esp. if you are not white.

Ever heard on Neutron Bombs? Sheesh, Israel should just blow them off the face of the Earth.

Not before India erases Pakistan

alg8tr wrote:

Not before India erases Pakistan

I guess they are both nuclear powers.

How bout Israel, India, and Pakistan all have a nice nuke fest and everyone around them just do what's right for America and die from the fallout?

Beam me up Scotty.....

Ratzilla wrote:

How bout Israel, India, and Pakistan all have a nice nuke fest and everyone around them just do what's right for America and die from the fallout?

Beam me up Scotty.....

That was never written or uttered in a Star Trek episode. But I'm liking the way you think.

I find the casual talk of nuclear war disturbing. Russia used to believe they could win a nuclear war. I think the US has about 1000 Neutron bombs. China and Russia have alot and Israel has some. They are a cleaner form of nuclear war with short term residual effect but the radiation spreads quite a way and if someone shot one off anywhere near a storm it could spread deadly fallout as it went. I'd hate to count on any of those nations caring who got caught under fallout enough to wait for a sunny storm free day.

As far as I know India and Pakistan only have standard type nukes. That could be bad for alot of the planet if they shot a few dozen off.

SciFi wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

How bout Israel, India, and Pakistan all have a nice nuke fest and everyone around them just do what's right for America and die from the fallout?

Beam me up Scotty.....

That was never written or uttered in a Star Trek episode. But I'm liking the way you think.

STAR TREK SUCKS

slickjay12 wrote:

SciFi wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

How bout Israel, India, and Pakistan all have a nice nuke fest and everyone around them just do what's right for America and die from the fallout?

Beam me up Scotty.....

That was never written or uttered in a Star Trek episode. But I'm liking the way you think.

STAR TREK SUCKS

You're a complete ass.

Yes he is.