Can never start em too young!

I'm pretty sure Bignose will have a coronary when he sees this.

Disgusting.

The Other One wrote:

I'm pretty sure Bignose will have a coronary when he sees this.

I figured the same thing but decided not to give him his cue.

Just wait until he can belch the ABC's!!!

Maybe you can teach him the original Pledge of Allegiance salute:

Jeez whats the issue? Some of you act like the pledge of allegiance is some kind of fascist rite. I thought it was a cute video Jamie.

luv2cook wrote:

Jeez whats the issue? Some of you act like the pledge of allegiance is some kind of fascist rite. I thought it was a cute video Jamie.

Bighead's protest is not isolated. I feel it's the parents right to teach their kids as they wish, but just for clarification, here's why the pledge gets fur on end.

The original version written by Francis Bellamy, a Christian Socialist minister. This version seemed ok to me.

Quote :

I pledge allegiance to my Flag,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

October 11, 1892

First change. Apparently some didn't like the personalization of saying "my" flag, and wanted everyone too stupid to understand that they were giving this pledge to The United States.

Quote :

I pledge allegiance to the
Flag of the United States,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

June 14, 1923

Second change. Maybe to distinguish it from the United States of Antarctica?

Quote :

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

June 14, 1924

Last change. Was purposefully done to mix religious influence with politics, and hence the primary argument. This change was pushed by the Knights Of Columbus and Dwight D Eisenhower endorsed it even though it would require public school children to start each day with a religious statement.

Quote :

I pledge allegiance to the Flag
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic for which it stands:
one Nation under God, indivisible,
With Liberty and Justice for all.

June 14, 1954

for the record, I don't give a F U C K what Bighead thinks. I am very proud of my barely 2 year old son. We can agree to have differing opinions. I think it is pretty impressive for his age.

Most of us realize you were showing his ability to retain and recite at age 2, but you shoulda known Bighead would have a negative comment on the subject. How long did it take him to learn it? I remember some kids having trouble remembering all of it in kindergarten.

It really is VERY good for just 2 yrs old.

We started teaching him about 2-3 weeks ago... He has been able to recite it for a week or better by himself but it took me forever to get a good version of it recorded.

Thats my point suzy. His vocabulary is amazing. He speaks in full sentences and understands things so well.

nobodysbusiness wrote:

We started teaching him about 2-3 weeks ago... He has been able to recite it for a week or better by himself but it took me forever to get a good version of it recorded.

Thats my point suzy. His vocabulary is amazing. He speaks in full sentences and understands things so well.

Must take after his daddy HAHE

That's not bad. Like I say, I recall some kids who had trouble for quite awhile in kindergarten. I've seen some 3 year olds that barely talked. How is he at math or have you tried that yet?

we havent worked on math yet - mostly just his vocabulary.

I tell ya, I've worked with lots and lots of 2 and 3 year olds in my 11 years doing daycare (officially) and many years with all the nieces and nephews in the family. Alex is very articulate for his age. I've had parents who insist on using "baby talk" with their kids and it showed in the kids' vocabulary. It's so important to talk to your child, from day 1, like you would any older person. Baby talk is a huge pet peeve of mine.

He's really a cute kid!


Here's a website one of my teacher parents directed me to last year. Her oldest (in K) is reading at 3rd grade level. I've used it with the kids for the last year. It's great. Starfall <---- link

Our Family was always good at memorization.

wow Mike I totally forgot about that!

just an FYI I finally got him to do it on video - its on my FB profile

nobodysbusiness wrote:

wow Mike I totally forgot about that!

I didn't.

I had a long commentary started but lost internet connection just before I posted it. Anyways, to make a long story short, If he has an edge when he starts school it will be a big confidence builder for him. Keep working with him.

Ratzilla wrote:

I had a long commentary started but lost internet connection just before I posted it.

Always type these first in Word or Notepad then post...

I usually copy long posts before I hit send just in case they don't go, but didn't this time. At least it was just a long paragraph and not 2000 words.

Young people are by definition the most susceptible to indoctrination. That's why churches focus so much on kids. That's why special-interest groups of all kinds lobby so heavily within publik skools. And that's why the military prefers 18-year-olds with minimal life experience.

And you're doing one hell of a job, NB. By the time your kid is 18, he'll be falling all over himself to go die for whatever the NEXT American Jihad happens to be (communists! drugs! terrorism!). All they'll have to do is throw around a few words about Gawd, Country, and Applie Pie... and he'll happily give his life for the financial interests of Haliburton, Northrop Grumman, Du Pont, or the like.

And hey- you might actually be a stock-holder in some of these war-profiteering companies via your 401K. It's a win/win!

Bighead wrote:

Young people are by definition the most susceptible to indoctrination. That's why churches focus so much on kids. That's why special-interest groups of all kinds lobby so heavily within publik skools. And that's why the military prefers 18-year-olds with minimal life experience.

And you're doing one hell of a job, NB. By the time your kid is 18, he'll be falling all over himself to go die for whatever the NEXT American Jihad happens to be (communists! drugs! terrorism!). All they'll have to do is throw around a few words about Gawd, Country, and Applie Pie... and he'll happily give his life for the financial interests of Haliburton, Northrop Grumman, Du Pont, or the like.

And hey- you might actually be a stock-holder in some of these war-profiteering companies via your 401K. It's a win/win!

Bighead wrote:

Disgusting.

Your previous post describes your most recent post.

Bighead wrote:

Young people are by definition the most susceptible to indoctrination. That's why churches focus so much on kids. That's why special-interest groups of all kinds lobby so heavily within publik skools. And that's why the military prefers 18-year-olds with minimal life experience.

My 18-year-old read Mein Kampf and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest while we were driving on vacation this summer. I don't expect that she'll become a Nazi or a nut.

The Other One wrote:

My 18-year-old read Mein Kampf and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest while we were driving on vacation this summer. I don't expect that she'll become a Nazi or a nut.

But if you read it to her from pre-school age on and told her it was the proper way to live she might be. I still don't find teaching kids things like the pledge offensive or wrong, especially by their own parents. But your comparison there isn't the same. Your 18 year old isn't as impressionable as a pre-schooler, and she wasn't having the words hammered into her by an intimidating drill Sergeant.

Here are a couple other changes in the pledge that I've read some special interest groups are already using and have suggested everyone change to them. See how these grab you.


First lean to the right.......

Quote :

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.

Now lean to the left........

Quote :

I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.

Now here's all the changes that've come about.

Quote :

I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all, born and unborn.

Now everybody have a hissy fit, and that's how you butcher the pledge.

again, what bighead thinks really doesnt matter to me. My husband put his life on the line for this country for 20 years, and we are proud Americans and are very proud of our young son for learning the pledge. My husband chose to be in the military because he loves his country, no one forced him or brainwashed him.

I don't think anyone needs an explanation Jaime. Other than Bighead nobody has had a problem with the idea. There's a whole lot worse things you could be teaching him than pride of country.

I have big problems with alot of politicians and with special interests like the ones who keep coming along thinking the pledge needs to be altered to suit their personal views or agendas. But with all the stupidity and problems this is still a fairly decent country and if we don't teach kids to have pride in it things will never improve.

Now Bighead, this part is for you. You are correct that religion and public schools intend to conform young minds to think as they want them to. There is a huge amount of social engineering targetted at kids. And you are right that the military prefers 18 year olds who are easy to mold into a specific mental pattern.

I've discussed that before with old soldiers from the WWII, the Korean, and Vietnam conflicts. And basically the general opinion was best said by one former colonel and Vietnam veteran. I asked him why take young scared kids and send them to war? He said because if you take a 30 or 40 year old man and tell him to do something that will likely kill him he'll tell you to get screwed. But the modern military is volunteer, these kids in now were not drafted.

So that brings us to the point. Were they brainwashed with patriotism, or do they think that way on their own? You were raised in this nation full of religious and patriotic messages. You went to school where the pledge was said and so did I.

Neither of us cares for religion, and there are others in this forum who don't either, but I'm sure we were all exposed to a ton of it. There were enough liberals to get Obama elected even with all the Bush administrations push on patriotism. and alot of us question the governments motives in nearly everything they do.

So it seems if this kid is bright enough to recite the pledge at age 2 he might be able to make up his own mind down the road as to what he believes is right. There are alot of things that influence someone as they grow up. And believe me, most parents have a tough time competing with all the other influences.

When I was 12 I wanted to go to Vietnam. After I got older I learned it was a BS conflict. I believe it was right to go after Bin Laden in Afghanistan. I believe invading Iraq was based on falsehoods. I believe the Bush administration used patriotism to push us into a conflict in Iraq that wasn't necessary.

But I also believe that if no pride for the homeland and our nation is instilled in our youth that it could eventually be more destructive to the country than war. The simple fact is that we all think a little different from each of our neighbors, but still being able to do so without threat is one thing to be proud of the nation for.

But if we continue towards socialism, or totalitarianism, either rightist or leftist, we might not have the choice to be patriotic or not. That's what you should fight. Not the military or those who choose to serve in it, but those who use them for the wrong reasons.

Bighead, why havn't you replied? I also have another question. If you don't like the brainwashing of kids why havn't we seen you complain about these school teachers that worship Obama and push their ideas on kids?

Lack of time and interest. Sorry I haven't been very entertaining lately.

Seems that way with everyone lately.

Ratzilla wrote:

Bighead, why havn't you replied? I also have another question. If you don't like the brainwashing of kids why havn't we seen you complain about these school teachers that worship Obama and push their ideas on kids?

Bighead wrote:

Lack of time and interest. Sorry I haven't been very entertaining lately.

Yeah, right. He just doesn't mind that type of "good" brainwashing.

The Other One wrote:

Yeah, right. He just doesn't mind that type of "good" brainwashing.

I knew you wouldn't be able to resist that one EP. But it is kind of curious how he hates government and social control so much but typically only trashes one side.

That's a fairly recent thing. It's not that the left isn't guilty of the same thing... It's just that I don't find them quite as ridiculous these days. Fundamentally though, the only difference between the political 'right' and 'left' in this country is HOW they will squander our money and WHICH rights they will trample. Whether right or left, American politiks is thoroghly authoritarian.

I don't think you were around back then Ratzilla, but I actually considered myself a Republican way back when the 67601 forum started. But with guidance from GWBush and EP, I grew out of it.

As for the Obama-worship, I'm no fan. But I don't see it happening on a national scale, nor do I see it being used to promote pro-war sentiment. The Pledge of Allegiance is a fascist mantra unrivaled in scale and universal acceptance. IMO, it amounts to worship of our flag/culture/government/etc., and I don't want no part of that. But people like NB have every right to indoctrinate their kids as they see fit.

My point is though, that you can shovel religion down someones throat from day one and it won't make them become a preacher, and the same goes with patriotism. All too often pushing an idea on your kids too much causes them to go the opposite direction. I've seen way more than once that the preacher or cops kid became just the opposite of their parent.

But I see no problem at all in a little national pride, and I don't see a problem with parents sharing their ideals unless it's at Fred Phelps level. NB's boy has a lot of school years ahead of him where most likely liberalism will be a constant. Unless of course she sends him to Catlick or military school.

But right now he's just a kid reciting lines that he's not old enough to completely comprehend. He's doing well at recall and communication and I'd rather see him recite the pledge with all it's stupid changes and additions than to stand on streetcorners holding signs that say "God Hates Fags" or learning how to make himself into a bomb for Allah.

ok.

Bighead,
You say it is bad to brainwash your kid with patriotism and religion. Is it OK to brainwash kids with your political and anti-religious ideas?

Hmmmmm....maybe not?

I don't have kids, and I don't work with kids... so I reckon it's a moot point.

I'm not the one teaching kids to recite a quasi-religious mantra with fascist origins.

And if you want to talk about the ideas themselves- ideas both behind the pledge and behind my own rants... there's no comparison. I can point to hundreds of thousands of people killed in ill-conceived wars spurred on by the same 'patriotism' that NB is so proud of in her kid and her husband. Nobody has been killed for the sake of MY ideas... just a few hurt feelings here and there.

I'm afraid every ideology has flaws and victims Bighead. If you are not a patriotic and militaristic nation eventually one that is will run you over. And Obama's brand of gun control failed in Britain and Australia with both nations reporting increases in violence against a person once self defense became illegal.

While the right wing version of patriotism serves to empower the military it does also tend to favor the right of the public to arm itself. The leftist version of allegience to country is a disarmed populace totally dependent on a police state for protection, provided that police state does not become corrupt and kill them as history has shown.

Our military machine is no different than owning a gun. There's nothing wrong with teaching your kids to be the proud owner of one. But the problem with socialism is that rather than teaching the kids that responsibility and self control come with owning a powerful weapon, they prefer to keep all the power with government.

I think you'd find Ron Paul to be a patriotic man. But he sees that balance is the key. He supports the pledge, but also supports a schools, or individuals right not to say it if it's language or intent bothers them. He knows that not every war has been for the right purposes, but he also knows how dangerous Obama style socialism could be long term.

I think what's most interesting and kind of amusing is that the writer of the pledge wanted allegience to the state with a centralized socialist government and now it's the conservatives who defend the pledge the most just because the guy in the big book of fairy tales gets mention.

I think you're stuck on a false dichotomy of left vs. right.

Not really, it is a left verses right situation in alot of cases. They both suck in their own ways and our problem is that instead of trying to attain a nation and government that's correct, you and most of the country continue to fight over which way to suck is best.

About national pride: I have no problem with it, in and of itself. Hell, in a sense- I'm proud to be an American. What I have a problem with is what that national pride- aka patriotism- is USED for.

It reeks of religion to me, helps people justify the nastiest behaviors by their own government and military... even turns them against their own neighbors- always used as cover for the latest hysteria (communists! Drugs! Terrorists! Muslims!).

Patriotism and national pride is a rather tribal mentality- something that we humans are hard-wired for. When push comes to shove (Pearl Harbor? 9/11?), there never has been any shortage of patriotism among us Americans- never will be.

But when I see this tribal mentality being artificially propagated, I have to assume that politics/power/profit must be involved. 'Cause it's a damned effective way to manipulate people. But don't take my word for it... here's what a genuine fascist thought about patriotism:

Quote :

Naturally the common people don't want war... but after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in every country.

— Hermann Goering, 1893-1946 (a leader of the Nazi Party and one of the primary architects of the Nazi police state in Germany)

I know I'm dangerously close to violating Godwin's Law here. Sue me.

Never did argue that governments use patriotism to push agendas that would otherwise be a hard sell. But I don't think the boy this thread started about is being taught the pledge by his parents because they want him to be a tool of the state.

As you more or less stated, the problem isn't patriotism, it's how the leaders use it.

Quote :

As you more or less stated, the problem isn't patriotism, it's how the leaders use it.

Right- but just like religion, if a kid is indoctrinated at an early age such that they have a deeply-rooted emotional attachment to an ideology (American patriotism in this case), then they will be MUCH more susceptible to being manipulated by said ideology (again, patriotism in this case).

I've no doubt that NB has the best of intentions here. I just think she's exposing her kid to the very real risk of being manipulated into giving his life for some political stunt (you know, like Iraq or Vietnam). I wouldn't want that for my kid... and as such I'd teach them to be skeptical of this sort of group-think.

But maybe she reckons that the benefits of her family belonging to the FlawWavers' Club outweigh the relatively small possibility that he'll sign up to go die for the NEXT unnecessary war. I dunno.

The boys dad, and NB's husband, is a military man. I don't know him real well but I suspect he feels the military is an honorable profession and I also expect that both he, and NB will discuss any future military career with the kids and advise them that there are going to be things expected of them that may not be exactly what they would do if they were in charge.

I expect at some time or another most military men just like most diesel mechanics, probably think their superiors orders are crazy. And as I said before, once he starts school the liberalization will hit full force. And contrary to liberal desire, it is still not law that Hillary and her village idiots are the only ones who get to raise a kid.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.