Health care bill wearing heavy on my mind.

I so hope this bill fails. It needs to be re written, and deporkafyied. I am disabled and still have to pay $183 every month for gap insurance. I can see why some old folks would turn to eating dog food. Thank You Burger King for the $1 menu.

By hook or by crook, it will pass. Trouble is no longer a distant spot on the horizon.

It doesn't, nor hasn't mattered for years who's right in Washington. All that matters to them is not letting the opposing party get credit for anything. Unless something bad happens. Then they both want to give full credit to the other side.

I don't like the price gouging done by the medical community and having to pay rediculous insurance rates, but I do like being able to get medical care right away.

I think Congress needs to tell insurance companies, drug companies, and medical services to quit sucking us dry or suffer penalties instead of just putting the bill on the taxpayers. They don't allow price gouging in other businesses so there's no excuse here either. A fair price for fair services is what needs to be addressed, not changing the whole system.

Ratzilla wrote:

I think Congress needs to tell insurance companies, drug companies, and medical services to quit sucking us dry or suffer penalties instead of just putting the bill on the taxpayers. They don't allow price gouging in other businesses so there's no excuse here either. A fair price for fair services is what needs to be addressed, not changing the whole system.

Gotta totally disagree with ya there, Ratz..

nitromaxx98 wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

I think Congress needs to tell insurance companies, drug companies, and medical services to quit sucking us dry or suffer penalties instead of just putting the bill on the taxpayers. They don't allow price gouging in other businesses so there's no excuse here either. A fair price for fair services is what needs to be addressed, not changing the whole system.

Gotta totally disagree with ya there, Ratz..

Why do you disagree? I'm curious what your opinion is on this? It all sounds fair to me.

I have to say that I think the whole problem is based on what the hospitals and doctors charge. It is out of control, It seems like they are in a contest to see who can charge the most to outdo their buddies. It's really outrageous

Insurance: Insurance is just that. It's buying down the cost of something should something bad happen. Nothing more. If everyone lived a perfect life and this were a perfect world, there would be no need for insurance.

Drug companies: Billions of dollars are spent by people for R&D to keep our asses alive and pain free without killing us in the process. Being at the top of the food chain has a price.

Medical services: Too expensive? Do it yourself. You can't? Awww... Maybe shoulda gone to med. school...

Those whom speak poorly of entitlements also enjoy some of the same.

Sphinx wrote:

If his unpleasant wounding has in some way enlightened the rest of you
as to the grim finish beneath the glossy veneer of life and
inspired you to change your ways, then his injuries carry with it an
inherent nobility, and a supreme glory. We should all be so fortunate.
You say poor Toby? I say poor us.

The insurance companies and hospitals/healthcare providers overcharge so much. This includes pharmaceutical companies. I worked in the pharmacy field for over 6 years, and saw first hand the markup on medications. Some of it is outrageous. Also, if you check into hospital bills, you will find that they charge outrageous prices also. I recall when I had neck surgery in Wichita at Wesley Medical Center in 1995, they charged me 10.00 PER PILL for tylenol. I understand charging a certain percentage for the services. They did go to medical school - and we rely on their education and smarts to help us get better or be healthy, but when they charge people these unbelievable prices for the meds/rooms/etc - it is out of hand. The insurance companies are also notorious for hiking prices. Gotta pay those agents their commission!

Without knowing the overhead and re-investment of said hospital, you would have felt just as safe being rolled into an adobe hut lit by candles and charged 25 cents for the same Tylenol?

Seriously, a certain profit margin is placed on some products to overcome losses on others. You also know this first hand.

Profit. One cannot belittle it unless the justify the same in their own lives. It's what allows you to have savings accounts, that new car, computer, house, etc. Life for the most part ain't fair. Shoulda chosen a different path.

I don't have any problem with a fair and reasonable profit , but the point things are at now are far beyond fair and reasonable. I have worked in retail and I have experienced first-hand what the term "entitlement" means. It is the attitude a lot of doctors have when they come in to shop and expect to get the items virtually free because they are gracing a store with their mere presence. They think because they chose to go to medical school and eat mac and cheese for a few years that their lives should be prime rib and lobster from there on out. Like I said, I don't have a problem with "fair and reasonable" . I wish hospitals and doctors had price lists available so we the customers could shop for the best deal around. They way things are now, you go in, they do whatever they deem necessary and only after do you get any idea what things are going to cost. It basically comes down to your money or your life.

I agree completely Luke.

Nitro, there is a difference between fair and reasonable profit, and outlandish pricing. We are at their mercy. We could up all our prices by 50-60%, and we would lose customers because our prices were too high, and they would go to our competitor. It is a different story when it comes to the medical field. We don't have the ability to shop around for the best price. They know they have us by the balls, so they use it to THEIR advantage.

Simple trade and barter. If a doctor walks in and expects a discount, demand they repay in kind. if not, no deal.

As far as price lists, whatcha gonna do? Shop around while you're carrying your thumb in a cooler full of ice due to a table saw accident? That's why you pay insurance for when you do something stupid. Gonna ask the lady down the street for thread so you can sew it back on?

You can't do it. They can.

If you have no idea about what a profession involves, how can you decide what is a fair profit? If you paint portraits and say it costs $10 and I claim it's only worth $1, how long will you be painting portraits?

Nitro, I did some research on drug companies a few years back and found that all of the companies but one spent more of of their profits on advertising than anything else. Most spent under 20% on R&D. I also knew the pharmacist in Ellis years ago and he told me that they still made profits off the same exact meds sold in Canada and Mexico that we were paying up to 9 times more for here. My uncle was in the hospital in 1981 or 82 and when we looked at his itemized list of expenses one Tagament pill was $12.

So I researched to see why they might be getting away with that. And no surprise, drug companies were making huge campaign contributions to big name politicians. What was the surprise was that almost all of them were republicans.

In that same research (done when drug companies were complaining the most of poor profits) one CEO was shown to have been given a compensation package including cash payments, stock options, and other perks to the sum of 200 million. That same company was spending something like 40 to 50% on advertising, and less than 20% on R&D. I think the average was around 10 to 15% per company spent on R&D. And the advertising is pure assed bullshit because two competing drugs are often owned by the same company.

Now here's the kicker. Drug companies use universities "tax dollars" to do alot of the research and testing on drugs. Once it's approved they claim patent rights and set the price. South Africa said they had a generic equivilent to AIDS drugs and were taken to court on patent infringement rights. The South African drugs could be produced for about $100 a year per patient where name brand cost $10,000.

The drug companies have spent more than $3 billion on lobbyists and political contributions over the past decade in the US alone. Walter Burton (Republican Congressman) said when the 2003 health plan passed that "The pharmaceutical lobbyists wrote the bill."

No Mr. nitro, the drug companies and hospitals are not telling you the truth about profit margins.

nobodysbusiness wrote:

I agree completely Luke.

Nitro, there is a difference between fair and reasonable profit, and outlandish pricing. We are at their mercy. We could up all our prices by 50-60%, and we would lose customers because our prices were too high, and they would go to our competitor. It is a different story when it comes to the medical field. We don't have the ability to shop around for the best price. They know they have us by the balls, so they use it to THEIR advantage.

There is a price for being at the top of the food chain. Don't get me wrong, I'm guilty of the same. Spent $38 for an inferior meal at a restaurant for my son's birthday. Should I have told them what was a fair price to charge?

nobodysbusiness wrote:

I agree completely Luke.

Nitro, there is a difference between fair and reasonable profit, and outlandish pricing. We are at their mercy. We could up all our prices by 50-60%, and we would lose customers because our prices were too high, and they would go to our competitor. It is a different story when it comes to the medical field. We don't have the ability to shop around for the best price. They know they have us by the balls, so they use it to THEIR advantage.

well stated NB. Like I said earlier, it's your money or your life. I hate when I see these stories in the news about the dentists that run a weekend free clinic for people without insurance and what a great thing they are doing for these poor unfortunate souls...... if they didn't charge so much in the first place, more people could afford to get things taken care of.

but insurance is no guarantee you are covered. I heard a story on Friday about a local guy that was flown to wichita and they took him to a hospital that his plan wasn't a part of and even tho he was not conscious to decide which hospital he should have been taken to , he still got hung with the bill. another part of the mess is figuring out which hospital accepts which insurance and vice versa.

I'm not buying the story anymore about how dr's are barely getting by , like I said, it's a contest to see who can charge the most

so tell me nitro , do you work in the medical field?

why do dr's and hospitals charge the way they do???? because thats what medicare will allow, so they are required by law to overcharge everyone equally

Hospital or hut, Mr. Ratz? Convenience or price?

LukeTHr wrote:

so tell me nitro , do you work in the medical field?

Nope.

So, Luke, Ratz, NB.. You are entitled to healthcare at the price you deem reasonable regardless of your lifestyle?

P.S. Slider, if you're lurking, this is how you debate....

nitromaxx98 wrote:

Hospital or hut, Mr. Ratz? Convenience or price?

You miss the point nitro. The drug companies and hospitals could charge less without gouging. When lumberyards in Florida tried charging 10 times the price for plywood before a hurricane the government stepped in and forbid it saying it was taking unfair advantage in a time of need.

Companies who's execs get multimillion dollar salaries, put out different meds under different names that do the same thing to increase profits, spend huge amounts of their profits on advertising and political bribes instead of R&D, and even use our tax dollars to do research and you take their side? Why do you want to live in the hut so they can wallow in wealth?

Ratzilla wrote:

Why do you want to live in the hut so they can wallow in wealth?

Because that is the path I chose. As you chose yours. I am the enigma that haunts. When I die, I will be conformed to none, and a WTF to most.

Ratzilla wrote:

When lumberyards in Florida tried charging 10 times the price for plywood before a hurricane the government stepped in and forbid it saying it was taking unfair advantage in a time of need.

Pro Government in this case?

Sorry, Al. Another thread hijacked.

So how about gasoline? If they say they want $20 a gallon just because nobody stopped them you think that's ok too?

Maybe they do have it and I don't. But even so, I am not going to say ok fine to drug companies that lie about their expenses in order to gouge us. At least say "Ok folks, we're gonna screw ya cause we can." This BS about high cost of R&D is what irritates me most of all.

And what about the use of universities using YOUR tax dollars to fund R&D? Do you think it's right they can achieve wealth by using tax dollars and then hose us again at the checkout line?

nitromaxx98 wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

When lumberyards in Florida tried charging 10 times the price for plywood before a hurricane the government stepped in and forbid it saying it was taking unfair advantage in a time of need.

Pro Government in this case?

Sorry, I wasn't aware that we vote in politicians to help someone with more than we have to screw us at will.

There lies the point. Had you chosen to be the squirrel that climbed to the top of the tree, you could stay high, face the rain, piss downward and let gravity do it's job. Or climb lower and claim to be the the chosen. Or continue to stand at the bottom, and piss upward. Any which way, you will get wet.

I may not have chosen to climb to the top, but even if it is my fault that I'm on the bottom I can't say it's my choice to have politicians that I voted for giving all the favors to the ones on top.

This is where your idea is flawed. Our politicians are supposed to be doing a job for all of us, not just the ones with enough cash to bribe them.

You also havn't given me reason why drug companies can hold patents and all rights to profits, yet be allowed to use our tax dollars in university research. I can't believe you'd think that it's right to use your tax dollar to do R&D and then overcharge you on top of it. Even Limbaugh would have trouble weaving a wild story to justify that.

nitromaxx98 wrote:

P.S. Slider, if you're lurking, this is how you debate....

Yes, and it's a good debate. But in all fairness slider has made his points this time without hostility.

Nitro is right, but I'd add a couple of other things:

1. Allow health insurance companies to compete across state lines. It worked with auto insurance costs. For those of you who doubt, do you really think that companies like State Farm would be lowering their prices if GEICO and Progressive hadn't taken away a significant market share? Competition works.

2. Enact tort reform limiting non-physical damages. In other words, if a doctor screws up, he or his insurance would still be responsible for the cost of making it right, but you would not be able to retire because you got a huge "pain and suffering" award. If you're permanently disabled due to the negligence of a doctor, then yeah, but not if you're able to go back to work at a salary comparable to what you made before the incident.

Nitro is right that the rich should be able to buy our politicians? WTF?????

Ratzilla wrote:

Nitro is right that the rich should be able to buy our politicians? WTF?????

That's your assumption. Not mine.

That's what you are saying. You think it's ok if politicians stand by while we get charged 10 times the price a medicine costs to produce just because we didn't "choose" to be rich.

So what the hell man, let's make gasoline $10 a gallon, and raise the price of cars to $100,000 for the cheapest models. You guys aren't talking about fighting socialist ideals, you are literally saying those who have the cash have the right to stomp on the rest of us.

It's wrong to expect someone to work their way to the top only to have it taken away, but it's also wrong to say the bosses can put a cap on my wages and then turn around and charge me as much as they feel like for their product. That is not productive to a nation and matter of fact it mirrors Soviet communism where only the elite had any rights.

Ratzo, that's the the way that it is now. The Democrat takeover of healthcare does nothing to correct this situation. The way it is now is that the insurance companies can dictate premiums because they know they have limited competition. If they had to compete nationally, instead of only with the other dozen or so companies that are allowed to do business in this state, prices would go down, not up. But they give the companies a wink and a nudge, knowing that they will be able to continue as they have been.

The state treasurer of Massachussets, the state that the Dems call the "pilot program" for this crap, predicts, in light of his state's experience, that the country will be bankrupt within four years if this bill passes. While I would argue that the country is already bankrupt, this should be a warning flag to anyone.

Thanks T O O. I can see a time in the next three years when the USA WILL go bankrupt because the Chinese are already pulling up. It will be just like my grand fathers said, "They'll take over the country without firing a shot." Let alone radical Muslims. Save our Souls Jesus!

Never mentioned politics. Ratz, if it really gets so bad under your skin so much, march on Washington. Become the martyr. Or sit in your chair and bitch. I do. Does no good. Why? Because I have my own life to deal with. As do you. You're a good guy who does alot for his community, but when push comes to shove, it's all about your bottom line. We chose our path..

EP, I'm not just blaming republicans for the high cost of healthcare. The democrats do their share of taking money for favors too. Among other things you know the attorneys specializing in malpractice claims gotta be padding democrat pockets. I happen to agree with what you were saying about tort reform, I just get tired of politicians favoring big business and letting us take it in the backside for the dollars when this country isn't meant to be that way.

nitro, we all need to be sending messages to the politicians. It's not supposed to be rights and government protection for the highest bidder. That's a mutant we allowed to grow.

Egg Zactly Rat !!! We have hired these representatives with our votes....one person one vote. We HAVE the power to make these changes. I have had health trouble all my life and know first had what should be done to the health care system "The Other One " hit it right on the head, we must have competition in this insurance industry. It is a crime that they get away with these practices. I went disabled in 1994, at that time my GAP ins was $80 a month, just a month ago it has gone up to $183 for 2010, my other choice of GAP insurance would be $233 a month. There is NO GD way that these premiums have to be this high. Case in point,...this health care bill needs to be re written line-by-line. MINUS the favors and pork.

Aw...that felt good.

I understand the gap insurance too. My mom is 84 and still has to buy extra insurance for what medicare won't cover. Her monthly cost for insurance is $229.79 and that's a bite for someone on Social Security. She's a good point on prescriptions too. While she doesn't have to pay personally, they gouge medicare heavily for what I can buy OTC much cheaper. Her receipt on her 30 day supply of Prilosec generic shows full price is $69.84

Well today is the big day. We're gonna find out once and for all if the Dems have ANY ballz.

Personally, I predict that the healthcare will will pass the House today. There's still a long way to go after that... lots of procedure and potential roadblocks. But if it passes today, then this bill will emerge from Washington as law in SOME form.

I'm still kinda ambivalent about the whole thing. From an efficiency standpoint, this bill takes us in the WRONG direction, IMO. It does little or nothing to address the underlying reasons as to why our health care is so goddamn expensive (including but not limited to a lack of competition and more importantly- price pressure). In fact, it could very well make the situation worse.

On the other hand, our current system is indefensible IMO. I agree with the Republican rhetoric that this bill IS a first step toward a single-payer system... and I'm not entirely against that. Yes, it's inefficient (but so is the current system). But much like our socialist public school system that we've had for many decades, this would provide access to mediocre services for those who otherwise would get little or nothing. That may not fit into the FoxNews world-view, but I can see the merits of it.

There is no 'constitutional right' to an education- but we as a society have decided that every kid ought to get one- even if it IS of mediocre quality and at a sometimes excessive cost. One COULD make the same argument for healthcare. And considering the state of our current system, I think it might be an improvement. Right now we have a worst-of-both-worlds situation... highly inefficient, exorbitant cost, and limited access for millions of people. But for those who can afford it, this is among the best healthcare available in the world.

Bighead wrote:

There is no 'constitutional right' to an education- but we as a society have decided that every kid ought to get one- even if it IS of mediocre quality and at a sometimes excessive cost. One COULD make the same argument for healthcare.

However, if you have a mediocre teacher, you potentially come out of school under-educated. If you have a mediocre doctor, you potentially come out of the hospital as a corpse.

Very true.

And under the current system, a lack of funds and/or adequate coverage can get you the same result

Bighead wrote:

Very true.

And under the current system, a lack of funds and/or adequate coverage can get you the same result

Currently, no matter your insurance status, your financial status, your employment status or even your citizenship status, if you walk into an ER with a life-threatening condition, it is illegal for them to deny you treatment. Not saying it doesn't happen, but there are no guarantees that it won't happen under BOcare, either. I can easily imagine doctors, who are being told what they can charge for every procedure, taking money under the table to put those with limitless finances to the head of the line for procedures, especially things like transplants. Hell, I'm sure that happens now. Doctors are only human. But this bill will only accomplish for healthcare what NAFTA has accomplished for the US manufacturing sector. Equalize the playing field? Yeah, right. Bring everybody down is more like it.

Really EP? Are you THAT shallow?

Yes, emergency rooms are required to stabilize ANYBODY who comes in- regardless of their ability to pay. But that does not include treatments for long-term (and terminal) conditions like cancer, heart disease, renal failure, etc. People die when these conditions remain untreated- and emergency rooms are under no requirements to do so unless/until the patient is in immediate danger.

In other words, emergency rooms will provide no treatment until the cancer or kidney failure has progressed to the point that you're about to die. And by then there's little to be done.

The Other One wrote:

Bighead wrote:

There is no 'constitutional right' to an education- but we as a society have decided that every kid ought to get one- even if it IS of mediocre quality and at a sometimes excessive cost. One COULD make the same argument for healthcare.

However, if you have a mediocre teacher, you potentially come out of school under-educated. If you have a mediocre doctor, you potentially come out of the hospital as a corpse.

There is no guarantee of education or healthcare. But unlike education we have as EP says, the problem that poor healthcare can cause harm.

That still doesn't give us a right to healthcare, but it goes to a higher level when government officials side with organizations be it hopsitals, drug companies, or anyone else that causes the publics inability to obtain services leading to potential harm when there's no reason for it. There is a big difference when politicians take contributions from these organizations and allow them to price gouge at will.

When our politians do this they are not promoting democratic freedom in business. They are favoring one segment of society over another based on who has the most money for influencing them and I don't think our founders intended for a nation full of "King George's" and their elite friends in control to be taxing and charging the peasants out of existence.

Oh and as to the latest thing you guys are debating, As of now anyone without insurance has the right to apply for state funded medical aid. You may not get the top docs in the nation, or the best care, but you'll get some.

I think this is the problem here. I think those who sit around on state aid or are uninsured think Obama care will give them top care like the best insurance card holders, but in reality it'll only give them what they have the ability to get now and maybe not that much.

Wealth redistribution. Everyone else, just pay and pay and pay.

I need a pill after all that,I don't care how much it costs.....it just better be a good one