I am my own Neighbor

my2cents wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

There's a 4th group. Those of us who just want to know why the first two groups can't find a solution to suit them both.

It is now and always will be about MONEY!!! GREED!!!!

What isn't motivated by money , greed and profit??? Do you go to work everyday for free?
I know I don't. I am working to make my life as profitable as I can. Everyone does. Did the landowner and developer that opened the ground west of Hays for country homes do it for free? No, they did it for money.....greed. Do the people that live in those homes work for free? No, they do it for money.....greed. If they own businesses do they really pay as much as they could for wages......probably not. Why? So they can put more money in their own pockets....greed. It is a cycle that makes the economy run. Trying to make it sound evil and sinister isn't going to make it any different than what anyone else does for a living.

I guess it boils down to if the money. If you are fine with paying $3.50 gas, higher food prices, all so you can support the speculators who jack up the same price, so be you, sleep well.

my2cents wrote:

nitromaxx98 wrote:

my2cents wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

There's a 4th group. Those of us who just want to know why the first two groups can't find a solution to suit them both.

It is now and always will be about MONEY!!! GREED!!!!

Kinda like Walmart anf Home Depot.

Yes, but we all have a choice to shop there or go elsewhere. Those who have had this project literally shoved down their throats were not given a choice except to live with it or leave what you have come to know as the life that you had built for your family. Sorry, but I do not believe that is right.

I don't, do you?

Working for a living and being paid is not greed that is survival. Taking advantage of someone in order to make more money and stepping on people that were your friends and neighbors to fatten your wallet - now that's greed! There is a BIG difference!!! I know of many wealthy people living in Hays that got that way by hard work, they are good honest people. Having money does not equal greed.

LukeTHr, after reading your post I assume that you don't mind paying higher property taxes so that others can profit, in your own words "It is a cycle that makes the economy run". I don't know about your money circumstances but I do not have the extra money laying around (that I worked for) to hand over to help fill Gene Bittle's pot of money in order for 20 people out of the 20+ thousand in Ellis County can sit on their rumps rubbing their fat bellies saying AAHHH, life is goooood!

LukeTHr, you also state: "What isn't motivated by money, greed and profit??? To that I respond that most crimes are committed out of lust for money, greed and profit - are they not?

By the way those landowners did not "work" to bring this disaster to Ellis County, unless you call stabbing your friends and neighbors in the back - work.

my2cents wrote:

Working for a living and being paid is not greed that is survival. Taking advantage of someone in order to make more money and stepping on people that were your friends and neighbors to fatten your wallet - now that's greed! There is a BIG difference!!! I know of many wealthy people living in Hays that got that way by hard work, they are good honest people. Having money does not equal greed.

LukeTHr, after reading your post I assume that you don't mind paying higher property taxes so that others can profit, in your own words "It is a cycle that makes the economy run". I don't know about your money circumstances but I do not have the extra money laying around (that I worked for) to hand over to help fill Gene Bittle's pot of money in order for 20 people out of the 20+ thousand in Ellis County can sit on their rumps rubbing their fat bellies saying AAHHH, life is goooood!

LukeTHr, you also state: "What isn't motivated by money, greed and profit??? To that I respond that most crimes are committed out of lust for money, greed and profit - are they not?

By the way those landowners did not "work" to bring this disaster to Ellis County, unless you call stabbing your friends and neighbors in the back - work.

I am in no way in favor of higher property taxes. I am stretched to my limits on what I can pay. I get to pay more to taxes than I can pay to myself. Thats why I am frustrated by the one fact that everyone is overlooking on these wind generators. They will not generate any tax revenue for the county, yet they will put a burden on the infrastructure of the roads and hiway crews. But that seems to be the case of any "big"project that comes along. They get a huge tax break at the expense of the rest of us. Look at the Home Depot situation. Look at the housing development at the south end of Ellis. Look at the deal that Sykes and NEW had given to them. I think it all stinks from that perspective. They get tax freebies and when the freebies are gone, the companies disappear like a fart in the wind. But the folks already existing here get to pay more to cover the governmental needs of those moving in. I think everyone should pay their own fair share then all of us would be paying less overall.

As for your comment on crimes, I really don't think these compare quite the same, tho I am sure some would argue that the whole project is a crime.

I am not saying all rich people are evil greedy bastards, but you know as well as I do, there are a bunch that are rich because they are greedy. Ask anyone who works in furniture and automotive sales and they can attest to the fact that the biggest tightwads are the folks that make the most money. They have this sense of entitlement that because they have a title in front of their names followed by a bunch of initials that they should get things at the cheapest price possible. Yet in their business, they just do whatever work their best guess recommends and you have no idea what the costs will be , but ya know they are gonna be rediculously high. You also know full well that there are businesses around that could pay their employees more but they don't.

As for the landowners working to bring this in, no, they probably didn't do anything to start it rolling. Some of them are just going to be the lucky beneficiary of owning land in an area of interest to the wind developers. The same luck of the draw holds true for oil. Maybe there are some conflicts of interest that exist. If so, get the attorney general to investigate it and get to the truth of the matter. But to totally be opposed to wind energy is small thinking. I know folks say, "It is being produced here but it won't be used here. It is being sold somewhere else". To that I ask this..... where is the power that we use produced at. It sure isn't anywhere near here so it must be produced in someone elses backyard. It sure has to come from somewhere. I am just glad the whoevers backyard it is being produced in allows it to happen cause we sure use it here. We would be lost without it. Think back to the New Years ice storm a year or so back. How screwed were folks then? So I say be glad that we get power from somewhere, cause we sure don't produce much here to cover our needs.

In this day and age of rising fuel costs, concern over greenhouse gases and global warming, I think we really need to expand and improve on wind and solar resources. They are abundant, they are free and they are clean. It is a win-win situation. We need to make the most of them before it is too late. People also need to learn to conserve and stop being so selfish. Think about the heritage that we are leaving for our grandkids and beyond. Do we want to leave them a used up dead or dying planet planet or do we want to be able to leave them a beginning of cleaner , cheaper and renewable resources? Sometimes what is best is not always easy and everyone has to learn to make sacrifices for the good of all. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Question?

How long have the land owners who will benifit, owned their property before there was even a hint of turbines possibly coming in?

my2cents wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

But I don't see this as being as bad as a city, county, or state just outright taking someones home or business and leveling it to make room for new development, and we've seen that going on for decades.

What do you think Eminent Domain is? If that is what they want to do there is nothing stopping them. Those who are being ridiculed the most are only trying to protect what they have already invested just as you and others have done when buying your homes or a parcel of land that perhaps you were hoping some day would APPRECIATE and NOT DEPRECIATE.

Those who snuck this project in (you know who you are) that is to include the landowners that signed easements all those years ago (hush, hush!!) did not and do not care about there neighbors and so called friends and now that their neighbors are crying fowl! they want to call them NIMBY’s and poke fun at them for trying to save what they have.

I know what eminent domain is. That's my point. When the government hoses someone by taking away what may have taken a lifetime of work to build it's supposed to be taken without complaint. But when someone makes deals to do something on their own property they are bad just because their neighbors don't want them to use the property in any way that might ruin the view? I understand that these things may annoy adjoining landowners, And I agree that it'd be nice not to put one too close to a home. But they complained about railroads, and a wide variety of industry in the past too. Women despised the early smoke belching trains coming through towns getting soot all over everything.

I have one question too. You said their neighbors are crying "fowl". Would that be chickens, ducks, or turkeys?

I still maintain that if these wind turbines had been proposed south of CountrySide nary a peep would have been heard about them. Comes to down a few folks who didnt want their "view" spoiled and their figured their property values would drop and THATS why all the bitching commenced.

luv2cook wrote:

I still maintain that if these wind turbines had been proposed south of CountrySide nary a peep would have been heard about them. Comes to down a few folks who didnt want their "view" spoiled and their figured their property values would drop and THATS why all the bitching commenced.

Of Course!

But the real reason is the weak American Dollar and a government that allows it to remain that way. I don't blame Bush, I don't blame Congress, but I DO blame the whole lot! I also blame you and I for allowing it to happen. If it's out of sight, it's out of mind. Only now are we realizing this. Yeah, energy prices are rising. We have allowed ourselves to live at the discretion of the wealthy investors which drive up prices. I don't blame them for taking of a good financial situation. All of you and myself would. But untill we decide that enough is enough, we will continue to be farmed.

Ratzilla wrote:

I have one question too. You said their neighbors are crying "fowl". Would that be chickens, ducks, or turkeys?

Ratzilla wrote:

They complained about railroads, and a wide variety of industry in the past too. Women despised the early smoke belching trains coming through towns getting soot all over everything.

But the railroads were there first and the people moved in around the railroads.

my2cents wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

They complained about railroads, and a wide variety of industry in the past too. Women despised the early smoke belching trains coming through towns getting soot all over everything.

But the railroads were there first and the people moved in around the railroads.

same applies.

How long ave the land owners who would profit, owned said land?

luv2cook wrote:

I still maintain that if these wind turbines had been proposed south of CountrySide nary a peep would have been heard about them. Comes to down a few folks who didnt want their "view" spoiled and their figured their property values would drop and THATS why all the bitching commenced.

Yes you are probably right on that to a certain degree. I don't remember where I read this but there is a couple of rules of thumb, if you will, as to how these windfarms should be placed in order to get the best possible response from the prospective county.

They should be placed north or south of a town as to have the least amount of shadow effect being the sun rotates east to west.

They should be placed in a unpopulated area as to not have so many complaints from neighbors. There is plenty of land that is not populated at all for miles miles. The area that I am speaking of is over northeast of Victoria. There is at least 6 full sections in that area that have absolutely no homes, there would be nobody complaining and the landowners that get as rich as they can and rightfully so.

As far as property values go, what if you built a $150,000 home. Your neighbors homes are anywhere from $100,000, $125,000 to $150,000. There is an empty lot next to you. One day you notice someone is building a foundation and then in moves in an old shabby house they purchased for $10,000. Your once $150,000 home is now worth $100,000 the rest of the homes around you dropped to $75,000 to $100,000. I really don't think you are being honest if you say didn't want to look at that everyday and that you wouldn't be upset that YOUR property value drops.

nitromaxx98 wrote:

my2cents wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

They complained about railroads, and a wide variety of industry in the past too. Women despised the early smoke belching trains coming through towns getting soot all over everything.

But the railroads were there first and the people moved in around the railroads.

same applies.

How long ave the land owners who would profit, owned said land?

Dorothy Bemis stated that her land was given to her father (or grandfather) back when the county was first being developed. I am sure that hers is not the only land obtained this way.

I understand what you are getting at but the same question can be asked of those who live in the project area that are opposing the wind farm. I personally know of a family in this group who's family is the 5th generation living in the same house as their anscestors and they hoped to pass it down to yet another generation.

my2cents wrote:

nitromaxx98 wrote:

my2cents wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

They complained about railroads, and a wide variety of industry in the past too. Women despised the early smoke belching trains coming through towns getting soot all over everything.

But the railroads were there first and the people moved in around the railroads.

same applies.

How long ave the land owners who would profit, owned said land?

Dorothy Bemis stated that her land was given to her father (or grandfather) back when the county was first being developed. I am sure that hers is not the only land obtained this way.

I understand what you are getting at but the same question can be asked of those who live in the project area that are opposing the wind farm. I personally know of a family in this group who's family is the 5th generation living in the same house as their anscestors and they hoped to pass it down to yet another generation.

Ok, If the windfarm was proposed by a local company and provided energy to this area, would there still be the opposition?

my2cents wrote:

luv2cook wrote:

I still maintain that if these wind turbines had been proposed south of CountrySide nary a peep would have been heard about them. Comes to down a few folks who didnt want their "view" spoiled and their figured their property values would drop and THATS why all the bitching commenced.

Yes you are probably right on that to a certain degree. I don't remember where I read this but there is a couple of rules of thumb, if you will, as to how these windfarms should be placed in order to get the best possible response from the prospective county.

They should be placed north or south of a town as to have the least amount of shadow effect being the sun rotates east to west.

They should be placed in a unpopulated area as to not have so many complaints from neighbors. There is plenty of land that is not populated at all for miles miles. The area that I am speaking of is over northeast of Victoria. There is at least 6 full sections in that area that have absolutely no homes, there would be nobody complaining and the landowners that get as rich as they can and rightfully so.

As far as property values go, what if you built a $150,000 home. Your neighbors homes are anywhere from $100,000, $125,000 to $150,000. There is an empty lot next to you. One day you notice someone is building a foundation and then in moves in an old shabby house they purchased for $10,000. Your once $150,000 home is now worth $100,000 the rest of the homes around you dropped to $75,000 to $100,000. I really don't think you are being honest if you say didn't want to look at that everyday and that you wouldn't be upset that YOUR property value drops.

Ahhh but now see I myself would probably complain to be sure. HOWEVER, I would NOT go running around the county spreading as much UNPROVEN bullshit about said property that I could muster as someone did in the case of the windfarm.

Part of the reason this irks me so, is the fact that last summer I was employed at a company that made their employees sit down and listen to a presentation from someone who was opposed to the windfarm, which in my opinion was TOTALLY wrong. Im sorry but NO ONE has the right to make their employees sit through something like this when its NOT work related. Smacks of so much political bullshit which was part of the case this fool was trying to make against the wind farms. After that stunt Id have voted them in (had we had the chance to vote) simply because of the behavior this individual exhibited that day.

It's all about the benjamins...

my2cents wrote:

Dorothy Bemis stated that her land was given to her father (or grandfather) back when the county was first being developed. I am sure that hers is not the only land obtained this way.

I understand what you are getting at but the same question can be asked of those who live in the project area that are opposing the wind farm. I personally know of a family in this group who's family is the 5th generation living in the same house as their anscestors and they hoped to pass it down to yet another generation.

They can still pass the land on to the next generation. And if that next generation grows up looking at wind turbines, it will be no different than it was for me growing up a block away from the big Allen Street water tower, or the big power poles by me when I was on Custer. That stuff to me was only awe inspiring as a boy, and I don't have evil memories of them at all.

nitromaxx98 wrote:

Ok, If the windfarm was proposed by a local company and provided energy to this area, would there still be the opposition?

When this project was first announced it was a local company. It was not known where the power was to be sold. There was very strong opposition to it. Then it got sold to a larger corporation. The opposition remained.
It is still not known where the electricity will be sold. It is a speculative project. No one has asked for this power.

When the publisher was on this site we told him about the oath of office issue in the planning/zoning commission. I further alleged that as an investigative paper he would not look into it until legal proceedings started. The AG office is looking into it. They will render an opinion soon.

http://www.hdnews.net/Story/county042908

Seems as though all but one of those members has refused to take the oath despite what Ratzilla says was something to the effect of the county commissioners ordering all boards to take the oath.

Justoo wrote:

nitromaxx98 wrote:

Ok, If the windfarm was proposed by a local company and provided energy to this area, would there still be the opposition?

When this project was first announced it was a local company. It was not known where the power was to be sold. There was very strong opposition to it. Then it got sold to a larger corporation. The opposition remained.
It is still not known where the electricity will be sold. It is a speculative project. No one has asked for this power.

Many projects are speculative for the simple fact that there is no guarantee of success. But i still have to ask this; why is it such a concern as to where the power is sold? The power that we use to run the computers we are having this debate on is not produced here,it is being generated in someone else backyard. By your idea that the power that is produced should only be consumed by the people that live near where it is produced would leave us in the dark .

Justoo.. I don't know where the order to take oaths came from. I was just told it's now supposed to be done.

I don't recall ever stating that power should be used where produced. Perhaps someone else did. I was merely answering Nitro's question.

Many people in this area are in the the dark.

Ratzilla-

I would assume the order came from the commissioners as a response to Jacinta Fabers remarks in front of the commissioners. I am sure they conferred with their legal counsel after her speech.

Ratzilla wrote:

They can still pass the land on to the next generation. And if that next generation grows up looking at wind turbines, it will be no different than it was for me growing up a block away from the big Allen Street water tower, or the big power poles by me when I was on Custer. That stuff to me was only awe inspiring as a boy, and I don't have evil memories of them at all.

Yes I understand that, but, if the homeowner is unhappy living there because of the turbines, there isn't much of a legacy left is there to pass down to another generation is there?

The water tower and power poles you are talking about were not 400 foot that twirled, flickered, and threw an almost torture chamber shadow effect from blades passing in front of the sun.

There is nothing in or around Ellis County that can be even remotely compared to the turbines that are proposed to come into our county.

One thing I will add to this. It is not uncommon for people to resist any change that occurs wherever you are. When the railroad built thru here, the native residents were opposed to that progress. I thnk we know the outcome of that story. Whenever hiways are built, there is resistance against the location and placement of the route and exits etc.... Now with the wind energy developments, people are finding cause to oppose them for any number of reasons. You can look on the internet and find sites dedicated to the good and the bad of them. You can oppose change or you can work with it. I think that historically , a person can see that change is inevitable. Things have to evolve, things will evolve. More than likely, those with the most political influence and money will win the day. Thats what it will all come down to in the end. We would like to be able to think that we live in a world in which everyone has an equal voice. The government wants us to live with that illusion, just so we can think we matter. All we are is sheep to be shorn by those that know how to shear us. We are given little baubles to keeps us content occaisionally but most of the time we keep ourselves amused while the real powers use and manipulate us to their benefit. I would think most of the counrty would be well trained in that by this time. I do believe that life is too short to expend huge amounts of energy fighting over the small stuff. You have to live it and enjoy it while you are here cause you can be going along one second and keel over the next from heart issues or a bolt of lightning could fry us. Live and enjoy life while ya can.

LukeTHr wrote:

One thing I will add to this. It is not uncommon for people to resist any change that occurs wherever you are. When the railroad built thru here, the native residents were opposed to that progress. I thnk we know the outcome of that story.

Yup. We killed nearly all of their buffalo and put in the railroads.

Then the white man came along and bought land from the railroad people that the military took from the native residents so they could profit from the location.

That is what you were getting at, wasn't it?

Yeah thats pretty much the situation justoo. See, I'm not in the dark as much as you think I am.

Never said you was.

Greensburg.

how much oil is under the country club golf coarse. could we put a pumping unit on every green and a windmill in every sand trap. how well would one of these wind mills hold up to a tornado. espacially if your the one that lives next to one. picture yourself with your family huddled down in a basement and a huge blade comes down ontop of you like a javelin. honestly the only problem with the wind mills i have is that we do not benefit from the power it generates.

my2cents wrote:

Yes I understand that, but, if the homeowner is unhappy living there because of the turbines, there isn't much of a legacy left is there to pass down to another generation is there?

The water tower and power poles you are talking about were not 400 foot that twirled, flickered, and threw an almost torture chamber shadow effect from blades passing in front of the sun.

I was saying that the kids growing up with them wouldn't likely grab their heads at 5 years old and scream how they couldn't take the flickering blades. Matter of fact, I doubt they'd bother anyone born and raised with them. Your description of torture chamer effects states pretty clearly that you are just anti-wind farm all the way. You know it's funny how we live with all kinds of things like lighted ceiling fans that create flicker effects, and all sorts of flashing lights and signs, and tree leaves cause sunlight flicker all the time and no one ever complains about them being a torture chamber. Are the turbines really that disturbing to you, or just the persons who would get the profits?

The light on my ceiling fan is below the blade. Who installed yours?

zeke wrote:

how much oil is under the country club golf coarse. could we put a pumping unit on every green and a windmill in every sand trap. how well would one of these wind mills hold up to a tornado. espacially if your the one that lives next to one. picture yourself with your family huddled down in a basement and a huge blade comes down ontop of you like a javelin. honestly the only problem with the wind mills i have is that we do not benefit from the power it generates.

so answer me this zeke..... where does the power come from that we use here? Whose backyard does our power come from?

Justoo wrote:

The light on my ceiling fan is below the blade. Who installed yours?

The flicker on the ceiling has befuddled the..

Turn it on and tell me if it doesn't cast shadows from the blades on the ceiling. I notice both the fan blades and the shadows all the time when it's running. At first it kinda bugged me, but now I don't pay any attention to it.

MWE. announced that it is purchasing 25MW from the Smokey Hill project.

Ratzilla wrote:

Turn it on and tell me if it doesn't cast shadows from the blades on the ceiling. I notice both the fan blades and the shadows all the time when it's running. At first it kinda bugged me, but now I don't pay any attention to it.

I don't usually post in the windfarm debates, but yeah, I'd have to agree with ya Ratz.

Flicker and shadows can be cured with shades till the sun moves...easy solution

SlumberGirl wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

Turn it on and tell me if it doesn't cast shadows from the blades on the ceiling. I notice both the fan blades and the shadows all the time when it's running. At first it kinda bugged me, but now I don't pay any attention to it.

I don't usually post in the windfarm debates, but yeah, I'd have to agree with ya Ratz.

Funny, I notice dust flying from the blades....

I'm not one for arguing the windfarm, but I am trying to understand what the hard feelings are about.

Comparing the shadows on the ceiling from a fan to the shadow flicker of a turbine is like comparing the 400' turbine to a 25' utility pole. Not even close to the same league. And pulling the shades does not mute the effect.

Ratzilla wrote:

Turn it on and tell me if it doesn't cast shadows from the blades on the ceiling. I notice both the fan blades and the shadows all the time when it's running. At first it kinda bugged me, but now I don't pay any attention to it.

But I have the option to shut it off if it bothers me. There is no switch on the turbines for those who live in that area.

How fast do the turbine blades rotate? Those that I've seen move so slowly, it's hardly noticable. I don't think that's a valid argument.

suzyr wrote:

How fast do the turbine blades rotate? Those that I've seen move so slowly, it's hardly noticable. I don't think that's a valid argument.

Please watch this for 3 minutes and get back to me.

The turbines that are "proposed" to be going up in the country can cause interference with cell phones and T.V. reception. I have read someone's "Good Neighbor Agreement" from Iberdrola, this interference is mentioned. I was just wondering, will your neighbors in the city of Hays going to buy y ou a dish or maybe buy and pay for a land phone???????

[quote="my2cents"]

suzyr wrote:

Please watch this for 3 minutes and get back to me.

Cool!

Yep, that's making me want to do something desperate. And how many minutes out of the day does this occur?

my2cents wrote:

suzyr wrote:

How fast do the turbine blades rotate? Those that I've seen move so slowly, it's hardly noticable. I don't think that's a valid argument.

Please watch this for 3 minutes and get back to me.

That wasn't a good example if you were trying to convince me of the terrible effects of the flicker. Might just throw me into an epilepic seizure.

Whatever pulls your chain, I know it wouldn't be for me, no matter how many minutes a day.

my2cents wrote:

The turbines that are "proposed" to be going up in the country can cause interference with cell phones and T.V. reception. I have read someone's "Good Neighbor Agreement" from Iberdrola, this interference is mentioned. I was just wondering, will your neighbors in the city of Hays going to buy y ou a dish or maybe buy and pay for a land phone???????

According to medical studies, both cell phones and T.V. sets can cause cancer. Thank you for pointing ot their medical benifits.

Do the larger turbines rotate to face the wind like the smaller ones do?