unethical?

I need an opinion please...

Is it unethical to discuss and compare your wages with another employee? Possibly. Is it unethical to discuss and compare your wages with another employee and then confront the employer about it? What is the average wage of a convenience store clerk that works 1 day a week?

Yes. Yes. $7.25 times number of hours worked.

I don't think talking about wages with a co-worker has anything to do with ethics. Confronting your employer about your wage after a co-worker is stupid enough to tell the other how much he/she makes, is just a stupid move. A one day per week convenience store employee probably shouldn't be making much more than minimum wage... if at all. If the employee wanted more money, he/she should request more hours, or find another job.

A few companies specify in their handbook that employees are not permitted to have such discussions. Most companies have no rules on this. Employers rarely encourage it. Many employees do it.
Ethical? If it isn't mentioned in the handbook.
Is one day a week all you need that person for or is it all they are available for?

I see a teachable moment here. You could explain what all you factor in to a wage such as accepting responsibility, reliable, etc. And a small part of that could include how a person who is there 5 days a week is more of an asset than one day a week. Let them know that there is a way to achieve their goal of a higher wage and let them know you will support them while they attempt to put forth the effort.

Sounds like a troublemaker.....send em packing

My company makes it an offense warranting dismissal to discuss wages with other employees. In some cases it might be logical to have such rules, but in most cases I think the employer who doesn't want open discussion is probably hiding high or low wages that reflect cronyism verses the average guy in the same job.

The one thing I've noticed is really high paid help will "NEVER" tell you what they make, but their brand new high end vehicles and fine houses pretty much tell the story.

As far as a part time employee goes, they have little to complain about because most employers won't even give benefits to them or pay them above minimum. I agree with justoo that telling a malcontented employee why they make less is a good idea if it's due to performance or other legit reasons. Unfortunately in bigger companies a nice set of tits or playing golf with the boss all too often gets better pay than an employee that's outproducing them in every way on the job.

Ratzilla wrote:

My company makes it an offense warranting dismissal to discuss wages with other employees. In some cases it might be logical to have such rules, but in most cases I think the employer who doesn't want open discussion is probably hiding high or low wages that reflect cronyism verses the average guy in the same job.

The one thing I've noticed is really high paid help will "NEVER" tell you what they make, but their brand new high end vehicles and fine houses pretty much tell the story.

As far as a part time employee goes, they have little to complain about because most employers won't even give benefits to them or pay them above minimum. I agree with justoo that telling a malcontented employee why they make less is a good idea if it's due to performance or other legit reasons. Unfortunately in bigger companies a nice set of tits or playing golf with the boss all too often gets better pay than an employee that's outproducing them in every way on the job.

Most large companies do have that rule. It's not cronyism per se that they want to protect, though. The rule is there to protect the company from lawsuits, both bogus and legitimate. By bogus I mean a lawsuit involving a person alleging that they are paid less because they are of a particular race, gender, religion, creed, sexual orientation or whatever, when they are actually paid less because they are less competent than others in the similar positions. A legitimate lawsuit would involve an employer making a promise to give an employee a performance review with the possibility of a pay increase and then failing to follow through. As far as Ratzo's claim about playing golf with the boss or other activities getting a raise, the company I work for has a strict fraternization policy. By strict I mean zero tolerance. If a management employee is at a bar and an hourly employee comes in, the manager is supposed to leave. Managers can even be terminated for "friending' employees on Facebook. Again, it's there to protect the company more than out of concern for any employees. Courts have been known to award very large amounts of money for sexual harassment, whether legit or not. Avoiding all outside contact with employees is the best way to prevent those kind of suits. Not saying it doesn't go on, but they will terminate managers for violating the rules if they find out. I know of two cases that it did go on. One never went past the general manager because the hourly employee quit before the corporate office was notified. The other ended the career of a high performing general manager who had been with the company for 15 years and was widely thought to be in line for a promotion.

Back to nb's original question: I'll guess you're talking about the place where you work in Hoxie. Small company, privately owned. In that case, the owner should tell this pissant that people are paid whatever he/she sees fit to pay them, and if they don't like it, maybe they'll have better luck at their new job, if they find one.

Most of the problem is that I see these two women doing this crap to my parents, who tend to miss alot. One has been with us for EVER - even before my parents bought the place 20+ years ago... but she is one that works ONE night a week, never takes on extra shifts without begging and then bitches about everything. If she hates it that badly, then why is she there? They employees get free fountain pop, free ice cream, free movie rentals, free ice etc. They have it made. The other employee that has been talking about wages had been with us for a long time too, but she is one that owes a ton of money, and only works 1 night a week, and maybe one day of the weekend every few weeks if we can get her to. Neither of these women do much to help the store grow, or have any duties other than stocking or waiting on customers. Most of the time I get nothing but attitude and bitching from either of them.

I would love nothing more than for both of them to be gone, but they won't quit unless something REALLY bad was to happen and the chances of them being fired arent good. Unfortunately small town politics are involved, and both of these women are related to half the town, and if we have a falling out and things ended badly, it would negatively affect our business. With the economy like it is, we can't really afford to lose business right now.

I mainly wanted to see if I was overreacting to the situation or not. Its one thing to compare salaries (which is normally frowned upon) but to come out and bitch and complain to the owners about it is another story. I looked up the "average" salary in cities for a convenience store clerk and it listed anywhere from 7.75 to 8 bucks or so. Both of these women make more than that. I am one that believes in deserved raises..... especially in a part time job. We have one full time employee and the rest part time. I dont believe in giving raises to a person who does nothing but complain about the place, the job, the other employees, and anything else they can come up with. Unfortunately, I dont have people tearing down my door to work for me, and I am STUCK.

Thanks for letting me vent folks....

NB in my opinion, the small town aspect should let everyone know that these one or two employees are habitual complainers since gossip circles fast. I think most recognize the difference between unfair treatment and a whiny employee.

We have some in my workplace who complain perpetually and we usually just politely tell them they know where the door is if they don't want to stay. Well ok, sometimes we tell them not to let the door hit em in the ass on the way out. They nearly always stay and shut up.

Oh and EP I do know what I'm talking about in the situation I was elaborating on but we all kinda figure it's the bosses perogative who they hire and how much they pay them, like it or not. I always liked the idea of productivity bonuses and the like, but in most places around Hays it seems that's the only time the complainers who don't want to have to compete with more productive workers get paid attention to so it doesn't happen.

Come to find out this employee is going to the other employees telling them to keep track of their paychecks because we are cutting pay.... I've about had it.

nobodysbusiness wrote:

Come to find out this employee is going to the other employees telling them to keep track of their paychecks because we are cutting pay.... I've about had it.

If that's not true, then it is grounds for immediate dismissal.

I'd call all the employees together and ask this employee to air their complaints while all are present so you can have a chance to counter. It will not only show the others you trust them to hear your discussion with that employee, it will also put that one on the spot to substantiate claims. Once false accusations are exposed openly the small town gossip circles will cover you among the public. Sometimes just forcing a disgruntled employee to play their hand in front of the others will shut them up if they know they have no legit case.

Unethical? No... not at all.

Annoying to the boss? Sure.

I would assume that you realize, NB, that workers in Kansas have precious few 'rights' of any sort. You don't need a reason to fire the gal. Employment is 'at will' in Kansas. Though it is a good ass-covering practice to document something that could be construed as a legitimate reason for firing.

She has concearns about fallout in a small town where the employee has alot of relation. They have a competitor right up the street from their place and bad words from that employee could lose business. Which is why I suggested calling the employee on the issues with all other employees present so that any false accusations could be proven with the best witnesses for the particular situation.

I don't think it is proper to discuss your wage,ever. You agree to do the job for so much money, period. If you disagree with the proprosal, move on, or prove your self worthy for a raise. Life is not fair, get over it

every1poops wrote:

I don't think it is proper to discuss your wage,ever. You agree to do the job for so much money, period. If you disagree with the proprosal, move on, or prove your self worthy for a raise. Life is not fair, get over it

Not 100% true. You may agree to a certain amount, but if the bosses say they can only pay "X" amount and then you find out someone else was hired for alot more doing the same job then there's something to complain about.

I think if there is a dramatic difference in two employees wages the boss shouldn't have a problem explaining why if it's based on performance, poor conduct, years of service, or something else. And I think the fairest way to do that is explain it with all employees involved. It may piss someone off to hear the next guy gets more because they deserve it, but secrecy breeds contempt.

Ultimately it should come down to if you are happy with your job and you make a enough to live on...it shouldn't matter what someone else is making and what you think you are entitled to. Too bad that's not the case and people don't just worry about themselves.

Sorry to burst your Reaganistic bubble that all employees shold grovel and lick the butt of their master but if one employee does twice the work of another, has more responsibiliy than the other, and has good attendance as opposed to the other, yet makes no more or even less than the other then they have every right to complain. And when the supervisors agree that the harder worker deserves more but they still don't get it then there's big reason to complain.

Ratzilla wrote:

Sorry to burst your Reaganistic bubble that all employees shold grovel and lick the butt of their master but if one employee does twice the work of another, has more responsibiliy than the other, and has good attendance as opposed to the other, yet makes no more or even less than the other then they have every right to complain. And when the supervisors agree that the harder worker deserves more but they still don't get it then there's big reason to complain.

That might be your personal experience, but at no time were you ever forced to show up for work. If you don't like where you're working or who you're working for, go find another job.

Also, if you have a complaint, you should go to your immediate supervisor and air your grievance. They are then obligated to give you an answer. It might not be the answer you want, but again, you're always free to work for the competition. Unless you have a non-compete clause in your contract or you're a professional athlete in a league that is exempt from anti-trust laws.

Once again, you are totally oblivious to the point. And also a very poor reader since it was stated in my post that the supervisors agree that certain employees deserve better pay than others. Unfortunately the bosses like it when an employee walks away so they can hire a new one cheaper. There's no consideration for skill, ambition, or experience lost, it's all about saving that penny.

Ratzilla wrote:

Sorry to burst your Reaganistic bubble that all employees shold grovel and lick the butt of their master but if one employee does twice the work of another, has more responsibiliy than the other, and has good attendance as opposed to the other, yet makes no more or even less than the other then they have every right to complain. And when the supervisors agree that the harder worker deserves more but they still don't get it then there's big reason to complain.

For some reason, every time I see this commercial, I think of you, Ratz.

I don't need to yell for my money nitro. I just hand the bank teller a withdrawl slip.

The Other One wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

Unfortunately the bosses like it when an employee walks away so they can hire a new one cheaper. There's no consideration for skill, ambition, or experience lost, it's all about saving that penny.

Only if the boss is a real dumbass like you.

You've watched years of American jobs going outside the states and seen the love affair American businesses have with hiring illegals. You've watched wages for employees go up a few dollars while corporate giants have went from making a million dollar salary to tens or even hundreds of millions and you call me the dumbass. Pull out and let some sun hit the cranium.

It's just your same old tired hate the rich/holier than thou rant, Ratz.

It's just your same old lame defense of what every intelligent person knows to be reality. And for you to try and tell me I don't even know what happened in places that I've worked that you DID NOT, is not only lame, but proof that you'll argue with any point I make and only shows anyone reading that your heads are buried deeply in your posteriors.

If the money bothers you so much, go make more. Start your own business. pay your own salary. Learn business with employees. All you are without that knowledge is the kid who gets picked last and runs home crying cause it's just not fair.

Right now it'd be hard for me to start out new for numerous reasons that I don't need to explain to anyone. And I am relatively satisfied with my job, but it doesn't mean there couldn't be improvements. Maybe the next time you guys bitch about liberals and their stupidity you should take your own advice and find someplace to go where it won't happen instead of trying to make things right at home.

E1P started this line of discussion by saying you agree to work for a certain wage and if you don't like it move on or prove yourself worthy of more.

I simply stated quite truthfully and accurately that some businesses favor one employee over another and that in some cases no matter how much you prove yourself you won't profit anymore than the guy who dicks off half the time. Maybe you guys just don't want to hear the truth of the matter, or maybe you think I'm accusing NB of this, which I'm not. I pretty much agreed with the rest in her situation.

Oh and by the way. I have run my own business before. I have had a contractors license, hired employees, and paid them the best I could. I sometimes had to sacrifice my own profits to make sure they were paid. I am now in a supervisory role and a large part of my job is finding ways to be more efficient and cost effective, which I'm told I do well. But as I said, until you do my job you have no business telling me what I should expect from it.

This thread has nothing to do with 'ethics'- it's about workplace & small-town politics. Not the same thing by a long shot.

And more generally speaking, "ethics" are pretty much a moot point in business. Unless you're the boss's buddy or kinfolk, the employer/employee relationship is pretty much a game of chicken. They will only pay you enough to keep you around. Pay is not based on what you "deserve"... and rarely even on what you 'produce'. It's generally based on what they reckon it will take to keep you from going elsewhere... nothing more.

And most employers these days don't give substantial raises- unless they're mandated by some bureaucracy (BIG company, union, gov't job, or the like). Or unless they really want to keep you around and they think you might take up another offer.

If you want a raise in a NORMAL economy (meaning someplace besides Hays), the quickest and most effective method is to just hire on elsewhere. Employers are stupid like all the rest of us humans, and they tend to take things for granted. Once you've been around a while, your price has been established. It doesn't matter that much how valuable you are... they know what it costs to keep you around. And the longer you've been around, the less likely they reckon it is that you'll leave. Whereas if you go somewhere else that needs help- they may well pay a premium just to get you in the door (though the pay may not go up for a good while after that). Therefore in my experience, it's best to job-hop every few years.

As for salary discussions- for the past several years, I just won't give out numbers. Simply won't do it. 'Cause if two employees at the same organization find out what each other is paid- doesn't matter what the numbers are or who the people are- SOMEBODY is going to be pissed when they walk away from that conversation. No 'ethics' involved there... just pragmatism.

Bighead wrote:

Unless you're the boss's buddy or kinfolk, the employer/employee relationship is pretty much a game of chicken. They will only pay you enough to keep you around. Pay is not based on what you "deserve"... and rarely even on what you 'produce'. It's generally based on what they reckon it will take to keep you from going elsewhere... nothing more.

That pretty much sums it up. Not sure where nitro gets the corporate worship from, but EP needs to realize that Hays area employers have just threatened to close the doors if a union comes in.

Employees from one big employer in the area said that they went through and laid off most of the higher paid employees once yet kept the low paid employees. And then offered them their jobs back but only if they'd accept starting wages. Most just found other work.

Ratzilla wrote:

Bighead wrote:

Unless you're the boss's buddy or kinfolk, the employer/employee relationship is pretty much a game of chicken. They will only pay you enough to keep you around. Pay is not based on what you "deserve"... and rarely even on what you 'produce'. It's generally based on what they reckon it will take to keep you from going elsewhere... nothing more.

That pretty much sums it up. Not sure where nitro gets the corporate worship from, but EP needs to realize that Hays area employers have just threatened to close the doors if a union comes in.

Employees from one big employer in the area said that they went through and laid off most of the higher paid employees once yet kept the low paid employees. And then offered them their jobs back but only if they'd accept starting wages. Most just found other work.

I don't worship anything, let alone corporations. I just don't wholesale hate those with wealth because, dammit, it's just not fair!

As I said before, if you were in the same position and had the same opportunity as those same rich people, you would be doing the same damn thing.

The only difference is I'm man enough to admit it.

Quote :

The only difference is I'm man enough to admit it.

Yeah, sticking up for your boss's interests rather than your own is pretty goddamn manly. If you had even bigger ballz, you'd volunteer for a pay cut.

Bighead wrote:

Quote :

The only difference is I'm man enough to admit it.

Yeah, sticking up for your boss's interests rather than your own is pretty goddamn manly. If you had even bigger ballz, you'd volunteer for a pay cut.

This is what you and other closet liberals don't understand. It is the boss who foots all of the liability. Not you. Not understanding is why you will always be a peon and not a leader.

nitromaxx98 wrote:

Bighead wrote:

Quote :

The only difference is I'm man enough to admit it.

Yeah, sticking up for your boss's interests rather than your own is pretty goddamn manly. If you had even bigger ballz, you'd volunteer for a pay cut.

This is what you and other closet liberals don't understand. It is the boss who foots all of the liability. Not you. Not understanding is why you will always be a peon and not a leader.

Says the guy who sells phones for $10/hour.


Actually I talked with my boss today about a promotion. This has been in the works for a while- I've been doing some corporate politikin' with HR, the branch manager, and the engineering department. Seeings how I'll be done with my engineering degree pretty soon, I mean to get into an office job before the weather gets hot. I've spent enough summers in the shop. Looks like they'll be sending me out of state for a couple months of training this summer- 'cause I'm worth the investment.

Parroting 'pro-business' boilerplate that you heard from Limbaugh and Hannity is a damn poor substitute for understanding how grown-ups interact. And it damn sure ain't gonna make the likes of YOU into a 'leader'.

I'm not a leader. I don't listen to either. I've found happiness is where I make it. I don't hate those more successful than me.

BTW, I haven't sold phones for 2 years. I went back to electronics engineering.

Right. Just like the Sanitation Engineer that stops by every Monday morning.

Hey- next time you're 'engineering' some electronics... you need to take a look at your sister's website. This is the second time in a week that this site has tried to give me a case of genital warts.

Lucky for me I never fukc Hayscians without protection... but still. Get yerself cleaned up.

Bighead wrote:

Right. Just like the Sanitation Engineer that stops by every Monday morning.

Yup, only not.

Nitro, I actually know something about electrical engineering. And I know that you ain't.

A guy like you might be able to set up a computer from off-the-shelf parts and/or do some low-level IT work. That ain't engineering. But I don't reckon I should expect you to make the distinction.


BTW- you really need to so some "engineering" on your sister's website. This is the second time in a week that this site has tried to give me a case of genital warts.

Luckily I don't fukc with Hayscites without protection. But good gawd- clean yerselves up.

Bighead wrote:

Nitro, I actually know something about electrical engineering. And I know that you ain't.

A guy like you might be able to set up a computer from off-the-shelf parts and/or do some low-level IT work. That ain't engineering. But I don't reckon I should expect you to make the distinction.

Electrical engineering is about making a light turn on or a motor turn. Electronic engineering is much different.

Really? Please elaborate.

Let's hear about your latest design. How'd that fence charger work out?

nitromaxx98 wrote:

I don't worship anything, let alone corporations. I just don't wholesale hate those with wealth because, dammit, it's just not fair!

As I said before, if you were in the same position and had the same opportunity as those same rich people, you would be doing the same damn thing.

The only difference is I'm man enough to admit it.

I don't wholesale hate them. That is only your misguided interpretation. I work hard for my bosses and try to give them a better company. It just doesn't seem to get attention in the monetary sense which is frustrating. And I greatly admire companies that do look out for their employees as some have done.

You don't remember how it once was when millionaires actually did pay most of the taxes instead of having political spin doctors blow smoke up our asses and claim they do. Besides the fact that the wealthy no longer have the high tax bracket to deal with there are so many friggin tax loopholes, diversions, and write offs now days that anyone with the money to hire the right help can avoid paying alot of them.

It wasn't fair that a millionaire once was in a 90% tax bracket, but by reversing it so they aren't much higher than the working man it has caused incredible greed. Now that they get to keep most of their money they no longer give nice fat Christmas bonuses. They now see us instead of the government as the competitor for their money.


As I said before I did run a contracting business. I didn't get rich, but likely that was because I always looked out for the customer and my employees ahead of myself. I actually had times my employees made more than I did because I ran into unseen complications on a job and I had to cut into profits to pay my help.

No, nitro, I would not do like alot of the corporations have done and lay off employees or gouge the customers all while taking government handouts and doubling my own salary. I know you don't hate all there is about Hays, or you wouldn't be there. But to someone not knowing you it'd seem that way. I think you need to re-evaluate what I hate, and what I'm about in general.

Quote :

I think you need to re-evaluate what I hate, and what I'm about in general.

You don't fit into his Talk Radio/FoxNews narrative. Therefore he ain't gonna 'get' you.

Remember Ratzilla, we're talking about a guy who rarely even forms complete sentences. Best keep your expectations low.

Bighead wrote:

Really? Please elaborate.

Let's hear about your latest design. How'd that fence charger work out?

So far. So good. Thanks for asking.

Just talked to a guy today whose workload and responsibilities have greatly increased. He was expecting a little more for a raise but found out it'll be the same as the last one. Nice game they play. Give a couple decent raises to good new employees so they stay, but after they make enough that it'd be hard to start over elswhere put the squeeze on.

I suppose if discussing corporate greed is so disturbing I can discuss it with a couple hundred others I know who agree completely instead of wasting my time trying to deprogram anyone here.

Ratzilla wrote:

It's just not fair!!!

well this thread had taken an interesting turn...

Bighead - I have nothing to do with problems with the site. Its free, run by the forummotion people. No idea what the problem is, nor do I care.

In actuality, lilhead, I gave you too much credit with my last post. You are that person who talks smart, but couldn't find his ass if his hands were taped to his butt-cheeks. You will be what the strong feed on in a do or die situation.