What is honor?

What is honor? (without looking it up) I have term paper to write.

To do what is right. Esp. when no one is watching.

it is a misguided and failed social construct.

A variety of white rose. Florabunda if I remember correctly.

Justoo wrote:

Florabunda

Kowabunga!

I've given it some thought, Peg... and best I can tell, honor is a measure of how well you are PERCEIVED (by others) to have adhered to popular social standards and ideals.

As Mike indicates, lots of folks believe that popular social standards define "right" and "wrong".

Bighead wrote:

I've given it some thought, Peg... and best I can tell, honor is a measure of how well you are PERCEIVED (by others) to have adhered to popular social standards and ideals.

As Mike indicates, lots of folks believe that popular social standards define "right" and "wrong".

As I see it, Since they do not allow internet in prison, that you also at least follow some of the rules.

Is your prowess as a mechanic, as stated, because you think you are, or because others tell you you are?

I think honor is self PERCEIVED.

Quote :

As I see it, Since they do not allow internet in prison, that you also at least follow some of the rules.

Yes, I have managed to stay out of a cage all these years. And your point is?

Quote :

Is your prowess as a mechanic, as stated, because you think you are, or because others tell you you are?

Not sure sure what you're getting at... or what it has to do with the subject at hand.

Does honor have to do with what you think about yourself, or does it depend on what others thnk of you? What if you think you have behaved honorably and are therefore honorable, but others think you a jerk. Do you have honor? If you have it, can you lose it? If you lose it, can you get it back?

If you are a teenager in israel and you blow yourself up with a suicide bomb for the sake of honor, (never mind the virgins), do you have honor? Does honor depend on where you live? If so, does the word have any real meaning?

It's simple, bighead, or is crayon more you speed?

You play by the rules, but pretend you're all omnipotent?

Interesting.

peg wrote:

Does honor have to do with what you think about yourself, or does it depend on what others thnk of you? What if you think you have behaved honorably and are therefore honorable, but others think you a jerk. Do you have honor? If you have it, can you lose it? If you lose it, can you get it back?

If you are a teenager in israel and you blow yourself up with a suicide bomb for the sake of honor, (never mind the virgins), do you have honor? Does honor depend on where you live? If so, does the word have any real meaning?

I believe honor is if you can inspire even one person to become the best they can be. there are different levels of what that my be, depending of location, etc. This includes the realization that others that you will ever know may have put themselves ahead of others, "just because it was the right thing to do".

It's correct that honor is not a good or bad thing, but rather what is seen as desirable traits or behaviors in a specific culture or group. That said, honor is very complex.

Honor can be described as respect for, or from another, doing what's percieved as a duty which may take hard work and sacrifice, following a path that is what your peers see as desirable behavior even if it's not what you really want, or unswerving loyalty to a cause might all be called honor.

nitromaxx98 wrote:

It's simple, bighead, or is crayon more you speed?

You play by the rules, but pretend you're all omnipotent?

Interesting.

You got me all figgered out Nitro. I'm a fraud, a farce, a sham... and I would've gotten away with it if it hadn't been for you meddlesome kids!

peg wrote:

Does honor have to do with what you think about yourself, or does it depend on what others thnk of you? What if you think you have behaved honorably and are therefore honorable, but others think you a jerk. Do you have honor? If you have it, can you lose it? If you lose it, can you get it back?

If you are a teenager in israel and you blow yourself up with a suicide bomb for the sake of honor, (never mind the virgins), do you have honor? Does honor depend on where you live? If so, does the word have any real meaning?

All good questions. When trying to figure out a concept like this, I look for a 'model' that provides satisfactory answers to as many questions as possible. That's part of the scientific method- and while it's a LONG way from infallible... it's the best tool I've got.

So let's say that you take mike's view of honor. In Mike's view (correct me if I'm wrong here, Mike), honor relies on doing "right" or "wrong". Problem is, as you've pointed out, that the same act can be "right" in one culture or situation and "wrong" in another. Matter of fact, outside of truely heinous acts like killing hundreds of thousands of brown people for no definable reason... it can be damn hard to pin down 'right' and 'wrong'.

Whereas if you take my (obviously correct) view of 'honor', then you'll get satisfactory answers to your questions. Remember: honor is OTHER PEOPLES' PERCEPTION of how well you adhere to society's standards and ideals (realistic or not).

Does honor have to do with what you think about yourself, or does it depend on what others thnk of you? It depends on what others think of you. If you were the only human on the planet... would it be possible to be "honorable"? I think not.

What if you think you have behaved honorably and are therefore honorable, but others think you a jerk. If others think that you're a jerk, then you clearly have not been percieved as behaving honorably. Therefore you ain't honorable.

Do you have honor? Depends on who you ask. Some would say that I have quite a bit. Others would beg to differ. That's because honor is all about perception... it's about what other people think... and as such, there's no single answer.

If you have it, can you lose it? Of course.

If you lose it, can you get it back? Why not?

If you are a teenager in israel and you blow yourself up with a suicide bomb for the sake of honor, (never mind the virgins), do you have honor? Yes, if you ask Osama and his buddies. No, if you ask your average Amerikan. If you ask me, you won't get a straight answer.

Does honor depend on where you live? Yes, to some extent. In Hays it's considered quite honorable to be a Mary-Worshiper. Not so much where I grew up in Southern Appalachia.

If so, does the word have any real meaning? Yeah, but the meaning is pretty damn relative and hard to pin down... much like "right" and "wrong".

Bighead wrote:

nitromaxx98 wrote:

It's simple, bighead, or is crayon more you speed?

You play by the rules, but pretend you're all omnipotent?

Interesting.

You got me all figgered out Nitro. I'm a fraud, a farce, a sham... and I would've gotten away with it if it hadn't been for you meddlesome kids!

peg wrote:

Does honor have to do with what you think about yourself, or does it depend on what others thnk of you? What if you think you have behaved honorably and are therefore honorable, but others think you a jerk. Do you have honor? If you have it, can you lose it? If you lose it, can you get it back?

If you are a teenager in israel and you blow yourself up with a suicide bomb for the sake of honor, (never mind the virgins), do you have honor? Does honor depend on where you live? If so, does the word have any real meaning?

All good questions. When trying to figure out a concept like this, I look for a 'model' that provides satisfactory answers to as many questions as possible. That's part of the scientific method- and while it's a LONG way from infallible... it's the best tool I've got.

So let's say that you take mike's view of honor. In Mike's view (correct me if I'm wrong here, Mike), honor relies on doing "right" or "wrong". Problem is, as you've pointed out, that the same act can be "right" in one culture or situation and "wrong" in another. Matter of fact, outside of truely heinous acts like killing hundreds of thousands of brown people for no definable reason... it can be damn hard to pin down 'right' and 'wrong'.

Whereas if you take my (obviously correct) view of 'honor', then you'll get satisfactory answers to your questions. Remember: honor is OTHER PEOPLES' PERCEPTION of how well you adhere to society's standards and ideals (realistic or not).

Does honor have to do with what you think about yourself, or does it depend on what others thnk of you? It depends on what others think of you. If you were the only human on the planet... would it be possible to be "honorable"? I think not.

What if you think you have behaved honorably and are therefore honorable, but others think you a jerk. If others think that you're a jerk, then you clearly have not been percieved as behaving honorably. Therefore you ain't honorable.

Do you have honor? Depends on who you ask. Some would say that I have quite a bit. Others would beg to differ. That's because honor is all about perception... it's about what other people think... and as such, there's no single answer.

If you have it, can you lose it? Of course.

If you lose it, can you get it back? Why not?

If you are a teenager in israel and you blow yourself up with a suicide bomb for the sake of honor, (never mind the virgins), do you have honor? Yes, if you ask Osama and his buddies. No, if you ask your average Amerikan. If you ask me, you won't get a straight answer.

Does honor depend on where you live? Yes, to some extent. In Hays it's considered quite honorable to be a Mary-Worshiper. Not so much where I grew up in Southern Appalachia.

If so, does the word have any real meaning? Yeah, but the meaning is pretty damn relative and hard to pin down... much like "right" and "wrong".

Between government and "brown" people, your plate is full.

Honor is a subjective term. Take the phrase "There is honor among thieves". The honor that is shared in the world of thieves is not shared by all.

Or "The honorable thing to do would be to marry her" may be true in our society if she is 'of age' or very near it. However if she is quite young there is no honor for either participant.

For the most part I agree with Bigheads answer. Sorry BH, sometimes stuff like that happens. There would be no honor in arguing with you if my arguments were false statements made only to create a division or distraction.



Honor™- Satiny, pure white petals with just a tinge of pink in the tip of the bud; very rich, spicy fragrance, AARS 1980.

It would be much easier for me to always be honorable if I was the only man on the planet because I would not have to worry about the views of other men. I would look at a tree or animal and ask myself if it's preservation was a good thing, or if it's destruction was necessary to my survival. I could easily be honorable in that situation because I'd only do what was needed to survive.

Just being alone does not erase the sense of what is right or wrong. You could live without ever seeing another man and still feel it's wrong to kill something else without need just because you wouldn't understand why another thing would kill you unless it needed to for it's survival. Therefore you can be alone and have a sense of honor.

I think honor is something we give to others as a deceison we make toward someone special and important to us..

I guess my definition was more in line with Ratzilla. I believed honor was at least in one sense defined as a neighbor neutral to friendly code that a person voluntarily lived by, and whatever public esteen type honor he posessed came as the result of others observance of his apparent adherence to a decent code. I can find one mention in a foot thick dictionary, as number 23 or so.

Maybe it was the parochial school.

I waw a flier at the Pheasant in Hays that said veterans have honor because they have at some point in their lives written a blank check on their own lives payable to Uncle Sam. They risk their lives, they receive honor. What good does this honor do them exactly?

I guess it gives they and their families a sense of pride. And VA benefits, and maybe a retirement at our expense.

Is being a Police Officer or a Firefighter Honorable?

Ratzilla wrote:

I guess it gives they and their families a sense of pride. And VA benefits, and maybe a retirement at our expense.

and how do you feel if they are given benefits, pride and retirement because they were disabled because of their military career?

nobodysbusiness wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

I guess it gives they and their families a sense of pride. And VA benefits, and maybe a retirement at our expense.

and how do you feel if they are given benefits, pride and retirement because they were disabled because of their military career?

I'd regret they become disabled doing the job and would hope they got whatever help they needed from those benefits. Why?

You aren't "given" pride anyway. Not by men, but least of all by governments.

No one said you were given pride. The feeling of doing an honorable thing does that.

To answer you nitro, I think any job done with helping someone else, or otherwise providing something positive as the objective is honorable. Being a veternarian or even just doing your best to support your family is honorable to me.

Ratzilla wrote:

No one said you were given pride.

Nobodysbusiness did. You quoted it in your prior post? I agree with you that pride comes from good works.

Honor is a funny thing. It means all things to everyone. So ill-defined by humanity as a collective it is; that it brings with it a collection of inconsistencies in its actual applications. No more striking an example exists probably than a good old fashioned case of rape. In America we find "honor" in the punishment of perpetrator and in some far reaches of the Earth it appeases a similarly driven sense of "honor" to stone the victim. Honor is a social construct. It's sole purpose the intent to "engineer" societies. A lifetime of institutions throughout our growth process intervene on behalf of the whole to help reaffirm these beliefs.

The difference between a moral man and a man of honor is that the latter regrets a discreditable act, even when it has worked and he has not been caught.
H. L. Mencken, 'Prejudices: Fourth Series,' 1924
US editor (1880 - 1956)

This implies that an "honorable" man has regrets, yet still does bad things.

Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself.
Lois McMaster Bujold, "A Civil Campaign", 1999
US science fiction author

Since we base our beliefs on a culmination of life influences and experiences and the "sense of honor" comes from within to show on the outside what that mixture has made, this quote seems to reflect the nature of honor more closely.

The louder he talked of his honor, the faster we counted our spoons.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
US essayist & poet (1803 - 1882)

This one just made me laugh because it is true.

http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/honor/

I don't think NB meant that government handed out pride, but otherwise I understand your statements and agree with alot if it. In India it is considered honorable by some for a mother to help kill her own daughter because sons are more desirable. The world can be a nut factory.

jusy wondered rat, and yes I didnt mean to put pride in my question. You cant be given pride.

nobodysbusiness wrote:

jusy wondered rat, and yes I didnt mean to put pride in my question. You cant be given pride.

In case you wondered, I'm not anti-military by any means. I don't believe we were told the whole truth about going into Iraq, but I fully supported using military force to go after Osama and Al Queada. And I didn't mean anything negative about soldiers getting a retirement at our expense if that's what made you ask. We pay their salaries for the job they do and regardless of whether anyone likes the war or not, they deserve to be treated right.

It's the job of the military to carry out orders unless it's obviously wrong, like if someone told them to massacre kids or unarmed captives. They are just doing their job best they can and should be respected. It's our job back home to tell our politicians if we don't like where they sent them.