RC Church tossing out people that helped a 9 year old...

http://www.feministing.com/archives/014073.html

For the "I hate links" crowd. A 9 year old girl in Brazil was raped by her stepfather. Pregnant with twins, she was given an abortion because her life was in danger and she was raped. However, the Roman Catholic church is going to excommunicate everyone that assisted her in getting the abortion.

CelticDragon wrote:

However, the Roman Catholic church is going to excommunicate everyone that assisted her in getting the abortion.

Disconnect their cell phone service?

CelticDragon wrote:

However, the Roman Catholic church is going to excommunicate everyone that assisted her in getting the abortion.

Well I'm glad to see they are getting rewarded. Rejoice folks, the cult has released it's grip.

CelticDragon wrote:

RC Church

Is there a splinter group called the Diet Rite Church?

The Other One wrote:

CelticDragon wrote:

RC Church

Is there a splinter group called the Diet Rite Church?

Not that I know of, but there once was one that was known for it's Jones soda.

Cases like this are why I cannot understand the dilligence of the pro-life crowd.

I don't believe in abortion on demand so corporate ladder climbers can screw and keep their raise getting figures, but this case truly warranted an abortion.

Ratzilla wrote:

I don't believe in abortion on demand so corporate ladder climbers can screw and keep their raise getting figures, but this case truly warranted an abortion.

I agree with Brazil. If it is a case of rape or life threatening so be it. As a form of birth control or policy pushing I think it's stupid.

BigBadBeast wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

I don't believe in abortion on demand so corporate ladder climbers can screw and keep their raise getting figures, but this case truly warranted an abortion.

I agree with Brazil. If it is a case of rape or life threatening so be it. As a form of birth control or policy pushing I think it's stupid.

Pretty much my stance too. It always pisses me off that the biggest supporters of abortion are women who just want an easy out because they don't have time to be pregnant, or don't want their figures ruined, and birth control for stupid teenagers.

I agree that the only good reasons for abortion are rape cases and health of the mother. Although I am against the government dictating the issue.

What gets me is those who support abortion yet they are also supporters of charging someone with a homicide if they kill an unborn infant during a crime. Not that I'm against charging a person who causes an unborn infants death, but it just shows how two faced some activists can be. The unborn are important when it suits their agenda and tossed in the garbage when they don't.

Perhaps a compromise can be reached. Those who get an abortion must pay for that procedure and the resulting funeral.

Interesting thought justoo.

Ratzilla wrote:

What gets me is those who support abortion yet they are also supporters of charging someone with a homicide if they kill an unborn infant during a crime. Not that I'm against charging a person who causes an unborn infants death, but it just shows how two faced some activists can be. The unborn are important when it suits their agenda and tossed in the garbage when they don't.

I don't think most people that believe in both feel that way. The difference is that abortions are performed before the fetus is viable outside the womb and the cases of charging for murder are usually legislated by that same standard. The only charges are if the fetus was viable outside the womb. There is a difference in fact, if not the sense of emotional loss.

Interesting that you mention that Celtic. I always hear the pro-abortion crowd saying life begins at birth. Can't say I've ever heard one say life begins once the baby can live on it's own. And likewise, I have never heard anyone who supports charging a man with homicide of an unborn infant say that he shouldn't be charged if it's only 3 months into the pregnancy.

The message I hear from them is always clear. "We are women, we want control".

CelticDragon wrote:

I don't think most people that believe in both feel that way. The difference is that abortions are performed before the fetus is viable outside the womb and the cases of charging for murder are usually legislated by that same standard. The only charges are if the fetus was viable outside the womb. There is a difference in fact, if not the sense of emotional loss.

So does that mean Tiller is a murderer? And does that make Sebelius a co-conspirator?

CelticDragon wrote:

I don't think most people that believe in both feel that way. The difference is that abortions are performed before the fetus is viable outside the womb and the cases of charging for murder are usually legislated by that same standard. The only charges are if the fetus was viable outside the womb. There is a difference in fact, if not the sense of emotional loss.

http://www.nrlc.org/Unborn_Victims/Statehomicidelaws092302.html

Kansas: Under "Alexa's Law," signed into law on May 9, 2007, as part of HB 2062, effective July 1, 2007, an "unborn child," meaning "a living individual organism of the species homo sapiens, in utero, at any stage of gestation from fertilization to birth," is defined as a "person" and a "human being" for the purposes of the Kansas statutes against first degree murder, second degree murder, capital murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, vehicular homicide, and numerous battery offenses.

Thanks Celtic, Your link to unborn victim laws shows that 24 states consider it homicide at any stage of development, and 12 only after it is beyond a certain point or when viable. Nice of you to contradict yourself.

The Other One wrote:

So does that mean Tiller is a murderer? And does that make Sebelius a co-conspirator?

Ratzilla wrote:

Kansas: Under "Alexa's Law," signed into law on May 9, 2007, as part of HB 2062, effective July 1, 2007, an "unborn child," meaning "a living individual organism of the species homo sapiens, in utero, at any stage of gestation from fertilization to birth," is defined as a "person" and a "human being" for the purposes of the Kansas statutes against first degree murder, second degree murder, capital murder, voluntary manslaughter, involuntary manslaughter, vehicular homicide, and numerous battery offenses.

Guess the answer is a resounding "yes."

*sigh* Whatever. You just want to be right. Fine. Who the frack gives a damn anymore.

CelticDragon wrote:

*sigh* Whatever. You just want to be right. Fine. Who the frack gives a damn anymore.

The children who he "terminates," i.e murders, probably give a "frack."

CelticDragon wrote:

*sigh* Whatever. You just want to be right. Fine. Who the frack gives a damn anymore.

Even though it wasn't your intent, it was you who introduced the evidence that shows abortion laws and homicide laws contradict each other on this issue. It appears we have another case presented here in the forums showing how two faced our government and some of it's citizens can be.

The Other One doesn't just want to be right, he is right. By Kansas law and the law of at least 24 other states Tiller is committing homicide. The simple fact is that this is not about someone on this forum being right or wrong. It's about women who want their babies to be all important when they can be used as a tool against men, but disposable if they are the one doing the killing. And it's about women getting government supported power to do so. It's rabid feminism at it's lowest.

Ratzilla wrote:

The message I hear from them is always clear. "We are women, we want control".

Don't know how familiar you are with Gun Owners of America. Their motto is "It's not just about Gun Control- it's about CONTROL".

And I tend to agree.

Unfortunately, it's hard to come up with a similar jingle regarding abortion, seeings how it generally isn't phrased "abortion control". But the same principle applies, IMO. Both sides want CONTROL.

Where you and I may disagree is that I tend to believe that when something is essentially PART of a person's body, then they ought to have said CONTROL. In most cases, I don't think there's ANY real concern for the unborn on the part of the Abortion Control Lobby... their concern (consciously or not) is CONTROL. Of women.

And it's no surprise. That's their cultural heritage.

Bighead wrote:

Where you and I may disagree is that I tend to believe that when something is essentially PART of a person's body, then they ought to have said CONTROL.

So you're saying siamese twins have the right to kill each other? They are more a part of each other than a baby and mother. Which one decides who has the right to live in that case?

Last night I was surfing and was on youtube. I ran across some abortion videos and I must say, that is probably the most brutal thing I have ever seen. People should really take a look at the videos for themselves. I think many pro-choice people would change their minds. It really is an eye-opener. I am not arguing religious views here, just human decency and I think anyone that performs abortions is probably paying a pretty big toll emotionally and I think it will haunt them as years go by.

Abortion is a tough subject. Last night we were watching a 1,000 ways to die and a guy happened to fall in a trash truck and got squished. All I could think of was eventually, that driver would know what he did, unintentionally. I couldn't imagine doing something to cause death intentionally.

don't need video I have seen it taking place and am still pro choice

So why are you pro murder slick? Aside from rape, a horribly messed up baby that couldn't have any kind of enjoyable life, or a threat to the mothers safety, what good reason is there to permit it?

Ratz, those reasons are probably why he is for it. I wouldn't be able to watch it though.

SlumberGirl wrote:

Abortion is a tough subject. Last night we were watching a 1,000 ways to die and a guy happened to fall in a trash truck and got squished. All I could think of was eventually, that driver would know what he did, unintentionally. I couldn't imagine doing something to cause death intentionally.

There is something seriously wrong with me tonight (yeah, I know... you're thinking just tonight?). That sentence just struck me as very funny, though.

Ratzilla wrote:

So why are you pro murder slick? Aside from rape, a horribly messed up baby that couldn't have any kind of enjoyable life, or a threat to the mothers safety, what good reason is there to permit it?

the girls were 17&18 at the time and the "fathers" were worthless fucks and would provide no support so the girls decide with no outside influence that this was best for there situation and did not want to go through it alone so I took them.

suzyr wrote:

SlumberGirl wrote:

Abortion is a tough subject. Last night we were watching a 1,000 ways to die and a guy happened to fall in a trash truck and got squished. All I could think of was eventually, that driver would know what he did, unintentionally. I couldn't imagine doing something to cause death intentionally.

There is something seriously wrong with me tonight (yeah, I know... you're thinking just tonight?). That sentence just struck me as very funny, though.

Okay, so the guy didn't happen to just fall in...he was trying to steal something and got caught and ran away and jumped into one of those big trash bins to hide from them and yeah...you guessed it...he was hiding all quietly and the trash truck came. Squishy city.

SlumberGirl wrote:

suzyr wrote:

SlumberGirl wrote:

Abortion is a tough subject. Last night we were watching a 1,000 ways to die and a guy happened to fall in a trash truck and got squished. All I could think of was eventually, that driver would know what he did, unintentionally. I couldn't imagine doing something to cause death intentionally.

There is something seriously wrong with me tonight (yeah, I know... you're thinking just tonight?). That sentence just struck me as very funny, though.

Okay, so the guy didn't happen to just fall in...he was trying to steal something and got caught and ran away and jumped into one of those big trash bins to hide from them and yeah...you guessed it...he was hiding all quietly and the trash truck came. Squishy city.

I didn't mean funny strange, I meant funny Ha Ha. That elicited a full belly laugh. Bad, I know. Couldn't help it, though. *Squishy City...

Sorry...

slickjay12 wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

So why are you pro murder slick? Aside from rape, a horribly messed up baby that couldn't have any kind of enjoyable life, or a threat to the mothers safety, what good reason is there to permit it?

the girls were 17&18 at the time and the "fathers" were worthless fucks and would provide no support so the girls decide with no outside influence that this was best for there situation and did not want to go through it alone so I took them.

I'll admit that's a better reason than wanting to keep their figure, or not wanting to interfere with a career, or a juvenile trying to hide a sex life from mom and dad, but I gotta wonder why 17 and 18 year olds were having sex without using contraception.

suzyr wrote:

SlumberGirl wrote:

suzyr wrote:

SlumberGirl wrote:

Abortion is a tough subject. Last night we were watching a 1,000 ways to die and a guy happened to fall in a trash truck and got squished. All I could think of was eventually, that driver would know what he did, unintentionally. I couldn't imagine doing something to cause death intentionally.

There is something seriously wrong with me tonight (yeah, I know... you're thinking just tonight?). That sentence just struck me as very funny, though.

Okay, so the guy didn't happen to just fall in...he was trying to steal something and got caught and ran away and jumped into one of those big trash bins to hide from them and yeah...you guessed it...he was hiding all quietly and the trash truck came. Squishy city.

I didn't mean funny strange, I meant funny Ha Ha. That elicited a full belly laugh. Bad, I know. Couldn't help it, though. *Squishy City...

That's hilarious! When one of the kids say, oh, that's funny, I always ask them is it funny-strange or funny haha.

Sorry guys. Didn't mean to derail your discussion.

slickjay12 wrote:

don't need video I have seen it taking place and am still pro choice

so you were present as the abortions took place?

It's ok suzy, it is Friday the 13th. Your squishy observation seems appropriate somehow.

LukeTHr wrote:

slickjay12 wrote:

don't need video I have seen it taking place and am still pro choice

so you were present as the abortions took place?

yes I was in the room while the procedure was taking place both times

You know some young women get abortions and have life long regrets. That isn't just church lady propaganda. I've known a couple women who were troubled by their decision to abort for years. Two of my sisters gave up kids for adoption in the 60's because unwed mothers were too controversial in Catlick dominated Hays. At the time it seemed logical but they have talked alot about regretting that. One finally got to meet her son, but she regrets missing the first 30 years.

slickjay12 wrote:

LukeTHr wrote:

slickjay12 wrote:

don't need video I have seen it taking place and am still pro choice

so you were present as the abortions took place?

yes I was in the room while the procedure was taking place both times

so did you see the bodies afterwards?

there were no bodies the procedure took place at about 2 months of gestation. I saw nothing below the waist when the dr started as she was draped

Ratzilla wrote:

Bighead wrote:

Where you and I may disagree is that I tend to believe that when something is essentially PART of a person's body, then they ought to have said CONTROL.

So you're saying siamese twins have the right to kill each other? They are more a part of each other than a baby and mother. Which one decides who has the right to live in that case?

I dunno... nor do I care. Doesn't have much bearing on the discussion at hand, seeings how you're assuming that both of those siamese twins are concious, sentient beings. That isn't the case when we're talking about a fetus.

I think a better (though hardly complete) analogy would be the 'parasitic' form of siamese twin (common in SouthPark episodes). You know... a clump of hair and teeth that amounts to little more than a tumor, but is TECHNICALLY another person. I reckon said conscious twin has has all the right in the world to have his unconscious brother cut out.

Obviously, this ignores the fact that a fetus WILL (usually) gain consciousness at some point. Given the right conditions, that fetus would become a sentient being. Of course, the same can be said of the millions of sperm that you squirt into a towel while looking at your favorite porn. Same can be said of the egg that gets thrown away, soaked into a tampon every month. Same can be said when two of those squishy little semi-cells combine into a single squishy little zygote. Same can be said of every little step along the way. At what point does it become MURDER to dispose of these squishy little cells?

Catholics say that that point is at conception (though some of the hard-liners want control even BEFORE that point). Jews traditionally believe that that point begins with the infant's first breath. These points are convenient and well-defined... but kinda arbitrary in my opinion; there are very real problems with EITHER of these bright-line positions. In my experience, people who claim this sort of 'moral clarity' are too dense and/or stubborn to acknowledge that HONEST answers in life are rarely simple and rarely clear.

Personally, I reckon that those folks who are best equipped to make that sort of decision are those folks who are gonna have to carry the baby to term and squeeze it out of their vagina. They have to make the decision and they have to live with the consequences- YOU DON'T. Not in any direct sense.

The anti-abortion people just want control. It's understandable, but I prefer that individuals control their own lives as much as possible... 'cause unlike some people, I KNOW that I don't have all the answers. Though I do have more and better ones than most folks.

A landowner opens his gates and agrees to let a farmer plant his seeds.

A woman opens her legs and lets a man plant his seed

The farmer provides care and nutrition as the seeds grow.

Man provides care and nutrition as his seed grows

Landowner says fuck you I'm going to plow it under because it's my land.

Woman says fuck you I'm going to abort because it's my body.

Bigheads vision of what's right.

See? I told you it's all about control.

We just disagree about who ought to have that control.

Little if ANY of this anti-abortion sentiment is based on genuine concern for that fetus.

It is in my case. I happen to believe it's killing someone.

Of course you do.

So how many unwanted kids have you adopted?

Bighead wrote:

Of course you do.

So how many unwanted kids have you adopted?

Oh I'm so sorry Your royal highness. Please forgive me for being a complete and total liar in your magnificent presence. You are right, I WANT ALL BABIES TO DIE DIE DIE!!!!
You stupid putz.

Besides being a single man, not having the ideal home environment, finances, and time to raise a kid properly combined with having to care for an aging relative would make adoption an illogical choice.