How mant Democrats on this board,

Have children in school? Do you allow them to say the Pledge? Do you not allow them to cover their hearts when they hear it?

I can't believe the the moron neocons are still bringing this up

SEE LINK

The photograph was taken on September 16, 2007, at Senator Tom Harkin's annual steak fry festivities in Iowa, an important ritual for Democratic presidential hopefuls. Contrary to the e-mails attacking Obama for disrespecting the flag, the candidates were not reciting the pledge of allegiance. They were standing for the national anthem.

nitromaxx98 wrote:

Have children in school? Do you allow them to say the Pledge? Do you not allow them to cover their hearts when they hear it?

Some who are against the pledge are not democrats, nor are they against America. Some are against it because some holier than thou pin headed bastards decided the original Pledge that our parents and grandparents recited from the 1890's through the 1940's was not good enough because the writer didn't see fit to mention God.

I'm not a democrat, but I AM curious.

Are you aware of the fascist roots of our Pledge of Allegiance?

Are you aware of the salute that originally accompanied the Pledge?

The old Seig Heil salute. Not sure when that changed, but the "under God" was added to differentiate between us and those "Godless Communists".

Yep. I was actually asking Nitro... should've made that clear. I figured that you knew.

The Seig Heil salute was changed in 1942 when it became too embarrassing.

I usually stand up for the National Anthem just so's not to make a scene (I've got no problem with the song... even if it is just a few verses of chest-beating). But that's about it. I don't worship a flag. Or a government. Or even a country.

I used to recite the pledge in school, but I just mumbled the under God part even in early grade school. Even at 5 or 6 I felt uneasy about this sky guy who according to my elders, was always threatening to kill me with lightning and toss me into the fires of Hell.

Is this so called "hell" the place where there's free booze and lots of women and if so I'm there!!!

I thought that place was called "Hays".

Degeneration X wrote:

Is this so called "hell" the place where there's free booze and lots of women and if so I'm there!!!

No, because at 5 or 6 years I already liked a taste of alcohol and a peek up girls dresses, so if I was told God would send me to that I might be a preacher now. Come to think of it, looking up girls dresses and sneaking drinks of dads beer was what I was told God would burn me in hell for. But of course that only made those things more exciting. So I guess it was God that drove me to be a dirty old beer drinker.

Why is it that tapes of the messiah saying that he would bankrupt the coal industry and favor a nationwide ban on conceal/carry laws weren't released by the various media until this weekend?

Early voting stories filled up the bandwidth preventing earlier release.

The Other One wrote:

Why is it that tapes of the messiah saying that he would bankrupt the coal industry and favor a nationwide ban on conceal/carry laws weren't released by the various media until this weekend?

Because they're all out to git you.

Justoo wrote:

Early voting stories filled up the bandwidth preventing earlier release.

I heard a story yesterday that said possibly 80% of Coloradans who were going to vote had already done so. The next story was about how you should expect very long lines at the polling places today. Isn't that a blatant contradiction?

Bighead wrote:

The Other One wrote:

Why is it that tapes of the messiah saying that he would bankrupt the coal industry and favor a nationwide ban on conceal/carry laws weren't released by the various media until this weekend?

Because they're all out to git you.

So who's going to pay for the increases in unemployment benefit claims if he puts an entire industry out of business? Not to mention the injury peripheral businesses like the railroads that transport coal. You think the messiah really doesn't plan to raise your taxes? You have a job and an income. You have a target on your back. In fact, you have two targets, since you're a gun owner.

The Other One wrote:

Why is it that tapes of the messiah saying that he would bankrupt the coal industry?

Because it is a lie?

But Sen. Obama’s stance on the future of coal power doesn’t appear to differ much from Republican proposals. Both candidates say that climate change and global warming is a problem, and both want to spark a transition away from traditional coal-fired plants. Both candidates have proffered support for “clean coal,” a new generation of plants that can capture and bury carbon emissions. Spokemen for the Obama campaign stressed that he never called for the abolition of the coal industry and underscored similarities between his proposals and Sen. McCain’s.

Both candidates have proposed economy wide cap-and-trade schemes that would make industry pay for emissions of greenhouse gases, effectively making coal-fired plants more expensive. The differences between the two climate plans reside more in the details — details that could prove economically important. Sen. Obama wants stricter emissions targets and wants industry to pay for more of its initial permits; Sen. McCain prefers slightly more modest emissions-reductions targets and a phased-in approach to selling the emissions permits.

http://blogs.wsj.com/environmentalcapital/2008/11/03/coal-warriors-palin-obama-camp-spar-over-bankrupting-big-coal/

Rog wrote:

The Other One wrote:

Why is it that tapes of the messiah saying that he would bankrupt the coal industry?

Because it is a lie?

So he was lying when he made that statement to the NPR reporter?

Obama is all for Clean Coal Technology, the comment was directed at those who built plants that did not follow the Carbon Emmissions Standards for Geenhouse Gases. If the didn't meet those Emmission Standards they would be fined for the overages of Carbon Output.

And I heard this explaination on a talk radio show coming back from Topeka from a right winger. Typical Republican Scare tactics, twist it to fit the Jack Booted Fear Theory.

Barack Obama: I voted against the Clear Skies Bill. In fact, I was the deciding vote. Despite the fact that I’m a coal state. And that half my state thought that I had thoroughly betrayed them. Because I think clean air is critical and global warming is critical. But this notion of no coal, I think, is an illusion. Because the fact of the matter is is that right now we are getting a lot of our energy from coal. And China is building a coal-powered plant once a week. So what we have to do then is figure out how can we use coal without emitting greenhouse gases and carbon. And how can we sequester that carbon and capture it. If we can’t, then we’re gonna still be working on alternatives. But...let me sort of describe my overall policy. What I’ve said is that we would put a cap and trade policy in place that is as aggressive if not more aggressive than anyone out there. I was the first call for 100% auction on the cap and trade system. Which means that every unit of carbon or greenhouse gases that was emitted would be charged to the polluter. That will create a market in which whatever technologies are out there that are being presented, whatever power plants are being built, they would have to meet the rigors of that market. And the ratcheted down caps that are imposed every year. So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can. It’s just that it will bankrupt them because they’re going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that’s being emitted. That will also generate billions of dollars that we can invest in solar, wind, biodiesel, and other alternative energy approaches. The only thing that I’ve said with respect to coal--I haven’t been some coal booster. What I have said is that for us to take coal off the table as a ideological matter, as opposed to saying if technology allows us to use coal in a clean way, we should pursue it. That I think is the right approach. The same with respect to nuclear. Right now, we don’t know how to store nuclear waste wisely and we don’t know how to deal with some of the safety issues that remain. And so it’s wildly expensive to pursue nuclear energy. But I tell you what, if we could figure out how to store it safely, then I think most of us would say that might be a pretty good deal. The point is, if we set rigorous standards for the allowable emissions, then we can allow the market to determine and technology and entrepreneurs to pursue, what the best approach is to take, as opposed to us saying at the outset, here are the winners that we’re picking and maybe we pick wrong and maybe we pick right.

Obama and Biden on Clean Coal: Develop and Deploy Clean Coal Technology. Carbon capture and storage technologies hold enormous potential to reduce our greenhouse gas emissions as we power our economy with domestically produced and secure energy. As a U.S. Senator, Obama has worked tirelessly to ensure that clean coal technology becomes commercialized. An Obama administration will provide incentives to accelerate private sector investment in commercial scale zero-carbon coal facilities. In order to maximize the speed with which we advance this critical technology, Barack Obama and Joe Biden will instruct DOE to enter into public private partnerships to develop 5 “first-of-a-kind” commercial scale coal-fired plants with carbon capture and sequestration.

Obama Passed An Amendment Supported by Biden To Add $200M For Carbon Capture And Sequestration Technology In Senate’s FY 2008 Budget. Obama was the chief sponsor of an amendment to the 2008 Senate Budget resolution that added $200 million for Function 270 (Energy) for the demonstration and monitoring of carbon capture and sequestration technology by the Department of Energy. [SA 599 to SCR 21, Agreed to by Unanimous Consent, 3/23/07]

Biden Proposed Energy Plan That Would Invest In Technologies To Use Coal More Cleanly. In 2007, Biden proposed an energy plan, “Joe Biden supports more than $50 billion in new incentives for research into: alternative fuel and energy sources, renewable energy technology, nuclear waste management and safety, and carbon capture and sequestration technologies that could allow us to use coal cleanly.” [Biden for President Press Release, 11/20/07]

http://www.whptv.com/content/localelections/story.aspx?content_id=43762b42-8e1c-4ad9-9a0e-3c63383449fb&rss=50

Yeah, whatever, Rog.

How do you explain the media suddenly saying that it's going to be really close when they called this election for the messiah weeks ago? Are they just trying to get ratings for tonight? It reminds me of the media who said that we should watch the Super Bowl because the Giants actually had a shot to win after they told us for two weeks that the Patriots were the best team ever and it would be over when they got off the bus.

Wait a minute, the Giants did win. Hmmmm....

Personally, I plan to watch the KU-Washburn game tonight.

Rock Chalk Jayhawk!!!!

President Barak Hussein Obama!

In reality I think that on lots of issues Obama would do alot like McCain. Go with the money men. There could be a potentially very liberal Supreme Court, and the government handout cart for minorities might get filled pretty full. Some energy changes, yes. A more passive view on war and towards Muslims, yes. But on many issues I doubt Obama and McCain are that different. Don't forget, McCain before now has been considered the rino closet liberal by his own party. As soon as elected that face could be the one we'd see again.

Well, it's time for me to go throw my vote away on the Libertarians as usual.

Bob Barr,...in a landslide!

Well I know Bob got one vote. I figure the role he played in trying to expose wrongs done at Ruby Ridge and Waco deserved a vote.

I'll give Barr kudos for that. But he's no Libertarian. He's a Republican who sees a little bit of political opportunity. Check out his wikipedia page, and you'll see a whole list of reasons why I'd never vote for the guy.

Really, the candidates that the parties picked made Obama an easy choice for me. I've had a personal grudge agains McCain for YEARS. If the Libertarians had actually nominated a litertarian, then I might've decided otherwise. But I don't know if I could've voted for ANY of the mainstream republicans this time (possibly for Paul... but everybody knows he's a Libertarian).

Yeah, I agree Barr is more Republican than Libertarian, but he was all I had. I too was wishing Ron Paul would go for Libertarian again. He really is a Libertarian in a Republican suit, and I'm sure you know was a past Libertarian candidate for president.

Ron Paul voted against Iraq, but was for going after Osama and associates in Afghanistan, which is kinda the way I saw it. So he's not the anti-war pacifist some claim, he just picks his battles more sensibly.

nitromaxx98 wrote:

Have children in school? Do you allow them to say the Pledge? Do you not allow them to cover their hearts when they hear it?

What does it make me if I do allow my children to go to school I WANT them to say the Pledge with their hands over their hearts????

I guess you gotta be a republican jess. Must be a new rule.

Well, if the shoe fits I guess

Ratzilla wrote:

I guess you gotta be a republican jess. Must be a new rule.

No. It shows respect for everything that being an American rewards you with.

I don't ever post here, but I read ALOT. I want my children to say the pledge, with their hand over their heart. Regardless of the name they give it, I want them to believe in a higher power without abandoning the need for personal responsibility. I want them to understand and accept that regardless of whether nor not we all agree now, God played an integral part, and always has, in our history. I want them to support their government whether they voted for them or not. I want them to know that if they don't agree with government it is not ok to burn the flag. I want my children to respect the views of others while not abandoning their own. Is that so much to ask?

registered wrote:

I don't ever post here, but I read ALOT. I want my children to say the pledge, with their hand over their heart. Regardless of the name they give it, I want them to believe in a higher power without abandoning the need for personal responsibility. I want them to understand and accept that regardless of whether nor not we all agree now, God played an integral part, and always has, in our history. I want them to support their government whether they voted for them or not. I want them to know that if they don't agree with government it is not ok to burn the flag. I want my children to respect the views of others while not abandoning their own. Is that so much to ask?

registered wrote:

I don't ever post here, but I read ALOT. I want my children to say the pledge, with their hand over their heart. Regardless of the name they give it, I want them to believe in a higher power without abandoning the need for personal responsibility. I want them to understand and accept that regardless of whether nor not we all agree now, God played an integral part, and always has, in our history. I want them to support their government whether they voted for them or not. I want them to know that if they don't agree with government it is not ok to burn the flag. I want my children to respect the views of others while not abandoning their own. Is that so much to ask?

They're your kids. Raise them how you want.

But mind your own goddamn business when it comes to me, my hand, your flag, and that fascist pledge.

Bighead wrote:

registered wrote:

I don't ever post here, but I read ALOT. I want my children to say the pledge, with their hand over their heart. Regardless of the name they give it, I want them to believe in a higher power without abandoning the need for personal responsibility. I want them to understand and accept that regardless of whether nor not we all agree now, God played an integral part, and always has, in our history. I want them to support their government whether they voted for them or not. I want them to know that if they don't agree with government it is not ok to burn the flag. I want my children to respect the views of others while not abandoning their own. Is that so much to ask?

They're your kids. Raise them how you want.

But mind your own goddamn business when it comes to me, my hand, your flag, and that fascist pledge.

This is why you are a douchebag. If you enjoy that, so be it. If you lived anywhere else than in America, where do you think you would be? Your whole argument to being anti-American is the war in Iraq. How did that effect you personally?

The difference between us is that I will raise my children to respect your beliefs as yours. And your children's beliefs as valid. When my children see yours without their hands on their hearts, mine will not harbor hatred, but respect the right of your children to not recite "that fascist pledge". And when recess rolls around, my children would play with yours just the same. Given your ire, I would have a hard time believing your children would offer mine the same respect.

registered wrote:

I want them to understand and accept that regardless of whether nor not we all agree now, God played an integral part, and always has, in our history.

Yes, the various gods of man have inspired him to steal from, rape, torture, enslave, and kill more of their neighbors than any other thing in history. Do be sure to teach them that.

I don't see much 'respect' coming from the flag-wavers in this country claiming that Obama is anti-amerikan based on that there picture.

I don't expect ya'll to understand it... but my refusal to worship America- and my all-around "fuck you" to folks who reckon I ought to- doesn't make ME "anti-American". It means that I won't be told what to do by the likes of ya'll.

BTW, Nitro and Registered. Does it BOTHER you that the Pledge of Allegiance was written and promoted by fascists? Does it bother you that that pledge formerly used the same salute that Hitler was so fond of? Are you aware of the striking parallels between the platform of the Nazi party and your own right-wing American nationalist politics?

Are you willfully ignorant? Or do you just not care?

How ironic. I am a registered democrat. I disagree, in a large part, with many "American" ideals. I do not consider you any more anti-american than I do myself anti-catholic because I am pro choice.

I don't expect you, or any other person who lives in America to support every one of it's decisions, but at the end of the day to at least respect that you have the "right" to dissent as you do because you live in America. In most other countries you would not be afforded that right without persecution. That is important. And if nothing else, should be acknowledged as important.

Hell yes it's important, and I've never said otherwise. But I won't worship a flag, nor will I recite a religious chant just because (left-wing?) nationalists like yourself reckon I ought to.

I need a new rug to put in front of my door... thinking of getting a nice, striped one.

Ratzilla wrote:

registered wrote:

I want them to understand and accept that regardless of whether nor not we all agree now, God played an integral part, and always has, in our history.

Yes, the various gods of man have inspired him to steal from, rape, torture, enslave, and kill more of their neighbors than any other thing in history. Do be sure to teach them that.

Gods have not inspired us to steal from, rape, torture, enslave and kill. We do that as mankind and use the various gods as an excuse. With or without the excuse the behavior remains the same. That is where the personal responsibility comes in.

Quote :

In most other countries you would not be afforded that right without persecution.

I dearly hope that you ain't claiming that Amerika is "free". 'Cause it ain't. It's demonstrably less 'free' than LOTS of other countries.

Don't get me wrong. Amerika is an alright place. I have no immediate plans to leave. But let's call a spade a spade here.

registered wrote:

Ratzilla wrote:

registered wrote:

I want them to understand and accept that regardless of whether nor not we all agree now, God played an integral part, and always has, in our history.

Yes, the various gods of man have inspired him to steal from, rape, torture, enslave, and kill more of their neighbors than any other thing in history. Do be sure to teach them that.

Gods have not inspired us to steal from, rape, torture, enslave and kill. We do that as mankind and use the various gods as an excuse. With or without the excuse the behavior remains the same. That is where the personal responsibility comes in.

Actually, God specifically told his own people to commit genocide MULTIPLE times in the Old Testament. He even told them in one case to kill all the men, women, and children EXCEPT for the virgin girls... and to keep those for their "wives". That sounds like a divine command for rape to me.

Bighead wrote:

Hell yes it's important, and I've never said otherwise. But I won't worship a flag, nor will I recite a religious chant just because (left-wing?) nationalists like yourself reckon I ought to.

I need a new rug to put in front of my door... thinking of getting a nice, striped one.

I guess you are missing my point. I am not asking you to recite, nor do I expect you, to recite a religious chant. Or to worship a flag. In fact, I appreciate that you don't. I am asking everyone to respect our right to recite the chant or not recite it. I would have never understood how important it was to me, if someone had not questioned it.

If you choose to not recite the pledge, more power to you. But please don't tell me, or my children, that we are not allowed to.

to big head

I beg to differ registered. Men have followed leaders that claimed God wanted them to torture, kill, etc. Their leaders may have used their God as an excuse, but they followed because they believed their God wanted it. In plain words, man will kill for his God when nothing else could convince him it's right.

And how can a person so worried that their kids believe in God be pro-choice? I'm not religious, but I consider abortion just because some cow doesn't want her career, or her figure ruined to be nothing but legalized killing of infants, so please explain yourself.

Sure is funny to watch the Faux Noise channel, it is like sitting through a friggen wake. Never seen so many Idiot Pundits moaning about today. Was nice to see Karl Rove eating crow.

registered wrote:

Bighead wrote:

Hell yes it's important, and I've never said otherwise. But I won't worship a flag, nor will I recite a religious chant just because (left-wing?) nationalists like yourself reckon I ought to.

I need a new rug to put in front of my door... thinking of getting a nice, striped one.

I guess you are missing my point. I am not asking you to recite, nor do I expect you, to recite a religious chant. Or to worship a flag. In fact, I appreciate that you don't. I am asking everyone to respect our right to recite the chant or not recite it. I would have never understood how important it was to me, if someone had not questioned it.

If you choose to not recite the pledge, more power to you. But please don't tell me, or my children, that we are not allowed to.

I've never suggested anything of the sort. What I have a problem with is people like Nitro who reckon that somebody is "anti-american" if they won't engage in such quasi-religious rituals.

Seriously... I've no problem with you getting your pledge on or jacking off to the flag... none of my concern. Just don't expect me to join.